Winter 2017-18 40 Man Roster / Rule 5 Draft

[nycphils]

My assumption is they've been trying to deal him w/o success and expect to waive him and not have him picked up b/c other teams are preserving roster room too, then resign him as a FA and give him a shot to air it out in the pen and see what happens. And if they lose him, no big deal. That's what I'd do, anyway.

[zambonir]

It is just standard DFA procedure. They got something for Biddle, though that was after the Rule V.

[andyb]

I think Appel can be outrighted to the minors without being a free agent. So they keep him (if they still want him) if he passes through waivers. Julio is the expert on minor league free agency so feel free to add. FWIW Appel has 5 years of minor league experience and Tirado 6.

[julio]

I think Appel can be outrighted to the minors without being a free agent.

Correct. Appel was drafted/signed in 2013. He won't be eligible for minor league free agency (mFA) until after the 2019 season. If the Phils can't find a trading partner, they'll ask outright waivers on Appel - and if he clears waivers, he'll go to AAA.

"Six-year minor league free agency" actually binds a player for seven seasons. The "six year" part refers to a clause in the Uniform Players Contract that allows the signing club to RENEW the contract for six seasons after the season the player originally signs for. So neither Appel nor Tirado is eligible for mFA this winter.

Tirado is an example of another "wrinkle" in the minor league free agency rule. He signed in 2011 - but did not play in 2011, because he signed after the minor league seasons ended (he signed August 30th), so even though he signed a contract in 2011, it was a 2012 contract, which binds him through the 2018 season.

If Appel does not clear waivers, the claiming club would have to add him to their 40-man roster. They wouldn't have to KEEP him there, but they'd have to add him when the claim him. (He could become one of those guys who is claimed, then waived, several times by several clubs, all in the same winter.)

[Philsmania]

Of the guys the Phillies left exposed, who gets drafted? There seems to be a consensus that Tocci goes. What about Davis or Liebrandt?

[LoneStarPhan]

The actual number of players drafted and not ultimately returned to the original team is relatively small in most years. We can hope the Phillies luck out.

I also lament the exposure of several of the prospects, but I have to place faith and confidence in the GM and his staff of advisors. Surely they can project the future of the prospects better than I can. Of course, they can and will make mistakes, although it will be a few years until we can be sure that they did.

Meanwhile, I anxiously await moves, be they trades, signing of free agents, waiver wire pickups, non-tendered signings, international signings. The chance to sign one or more of the Brave prospects freed by MLB is especially attractive. Let the hot stove heat up.

[gmwannabe]

looking on another site, and maybe I missed this, but Garcia left the AFL after 4 games for "undisclosed reasons". more problems for him or disappointed in performance. i wonder if this had a hand in the phils decision to take him off the 40.
gm

[allentown]

It almost certainly did. He was in AFL so Phillies could decide if he was worth a 40-man spot after he didn't perform up to expectations on his return this season.

[Slinging_Southpaw]

If I had the call too make, 2(1infield/1 outfield) of our bench spots and one bullpen slot would be chosen in the Rule 5 Draft.(DFA Cam Perkins, Zac Curtis and Jesmuel Valentin).
My 3 choices:
1)Brad Keller-RHP(AZ)
2)Travis Demeritte-2B/3B(ATL)
3)Tito Polo-OF(CHI)AL

[allentown]

If I had the call too make, 2(1infield/1 outfield) of our bench spots and one bullpen slot would be chosen in the Rule 5 Draft

I think that this is hugely optimistic. Drafting in the 3 slot, I think we have a 50-50 chance of picking a guy who can contribute enough immediately and have enough ceiling to be kept all season. The chances of finding 3 such guys is effectively nil. With an extra year of team protection added several years back, the draft is thinned. To strike gold in the second round of draft means our scouts have recognized a guy that every other team missed. To do that a second time in the third round is astronomical odds against.

[Squire]

Right now our 40 man is full so we'd have to DFA or do a trade before then to pick anyone. I don't think we are taking anyone this year is my gut

[Slinging_Southpaw]

I agree, but taking a chance IMO is better than not taking that chance. How often have we had players stay most, if not all of the season, contribute little to nothing, then just walk away at the end of the season with nothing to show from that roster spot(Peter Boujos).
It's a cheap roll of the dice, with a potential big pay-off.
If we were buying Cuban prospects, most here would be all in on it, knowing little to nothing about how well that player makes the move into Pro ball in the States.

[zambonir]

If memory serves SS is an advocate for taking lots of guys in the Rule 5, instead of using players like Benoit, Nava and Florimon. Upside/gamble over short-term stability. I don't agree with that, but I assume the assumption isn't that all three would make it through spring training, just that they'd be worth a look.

Problem is, the Phillies need four or five 40-man spots for new players who are going to be on the 25, they can't spare them for Rule V. I assume they will take one player, because they are drafting so high, and because the newish scouting apparatus (plus Kapler wrt to the Dodgers system) will surely have identified some people that they like.

Also, the make-up of this team, at least currently, means there aren't two fungible bench spots available. They need a strong LF/1B (or 3B) bat and they don't need someone who primarily plays 2B (or a 3B who is RHB).

The thing is, your Goedells are still far more common than your Herreras, and the guys who don't even stick around are most common at all. Tito Polo is an intriguing player if you could send him to Lehigh Valley. Not so much if he spends 2018 on a major league bench (and that spot is better given to Quinn if they also sign a power bat. Or Tocci for that matter).

[Slinging_Southpaw]

I'm not completely against it, especially in the bullpen, where we need some stability.

[Slinging_Southpaw]

This is my bench.
Knapp-C
Florimon-SS(UT)
Demeritte-2B/3B(Rule 5)
Veteran LH-(1B/OF)
Polo-OF(Rule 5)

7th Bullpen slot
Brad Keller-RHP(Rule 5)

I'm all for signing a veteran BP arm.

"Also, the make-up of this team, at least currently, means there aren't two fungible bench spots available. They need a strong LF/1B (or 3B) bat and they don't need someone who primarily plays 2B (or a 3B who is RHB)."
Why? Most are expecting 72-80 wins, why do you NEED that strong LH bat? Sure, it would be nice, but if you're building, acquiring talent is more important.

Sure there are some Rule 5 "flops", but we also know far too well, there are also some veteran flops.

[Austinfan]

There are mostly Rule 5 flops. Stumpf anyone?

A better move is to draft someone in Rule 5, then trade another prospect back to his original team if you really like what you see, and send him to AAA.
But the Phillies are past the point to sacrifice a 25 man roster spot for a marginal prospect, if you can't pull a Victorino, don't bother.
Since a team that exposes a player doesn't value them too highly, they might be willing to take a marginal prospect at another position.

[Slinging_Southpaw]

If it was that easy "pull a Victorino", no one would sign any free agents.

Also, Daniel Stumpf had a pretty good year last year in the Major Leagues.

[zambonir]

But what if they don't trade Galvis or Hernandez?

I think carrying someone like Demeritte in that spot leaves you with, essentially, another Florimon.Or worse, a guy who never plays and struggles to PH in what is still a key offensive bench slot (if not so much last year once Blanco cratered, though I believe he still did okay as a PH).

It's also just not viable in terms of roster management. Especiallly for the bullpen where you want the bottom to be optionable guys.But that's often true of your last position player too. Plus you'd have to have extra depth in case they don't work out.

I think the bigger issue is these players don't develop. Herrera was rare/lucky because they couldn't keep him out of the line-up, but that was on a Phillies team that had no outfielders. Victorino and Enciarte became what they became because they weren't kept as Rule V guys. It might have made more sense the past few seasons but now the team needs more short-term production, while the long-term should be coming from within.

[Slinging_Southpaw]

I was looking at Demeritte as more of a 3B option(Franco insurance), with experience at 2B simply being a bonus.(also biggest longshot, with highest upside)

The Phillies have options on almost everyone on the team. I don't see that as an issue.

The Phillies have done an excellent job singling players out, they should take advantage of that, but stay away from the quirky LH relievers. A wasted roster spot IMO.

[zambonir]

The Phillies have options on almost everyone on the team. I don't see that as an issue.

But the options need to be on the players you actually want to send down. If you start with a Pool and then want to call up Quinn, that is it, Pool's out of the organization. If Ty Kelly is no good you send him back to AAA, if Demmerit is, that's it, he's done.

I'm not dismissing Rule V in and of itself, I just don't think you can give more than one roster spot over to it. And if you can somehow make room for three, you've got bigger problems