Phillies 2016-2017 offseason Discussion

[phillychuck]

I like Brandon Moss, but I'd have preferred the Phils have kept him when they had him in AAA rather than acquire him now. He's a league-average bat, basically a 1-to-2-WAR OF/1B. I'd actually rather see Stassi in that role. Moss is frustrating to watch as a fan since his K-rate is so high, and what he adds to this year's team is not significant. Give the RF ABs to Altherr and/or Quinn. Go after a better LH bat; a cheaper, younger LH bat; or stay put.

[Austinfan]

I would not overpay Moss, he's 33, clearly on the decline, and at this point should be seen as a part-time player.
He's not a horrible OF, so he could certainly fill in as a LF until one of the kids are ready.
At 1B, I think Stassi is probably a better bet, question is whether Stassi can play adequate defensively in LF.

[LoneStarPhan]

I'd pass on Moss. Not much upside and regardless of what we way here, if he signs with the Phils, he is in the lineup over younger options almost every game. I certainly would not want to see a 2 or 3 year contract.

[andyb]

Why are we worried one bit about overpaying Moss. First, he is only looking at one or two year deals. Second, we have plenty of unused salary room the next 2 years. Third, people are talking about him getting less than $10 million a year. 2/14 was the MLB trade rumor prediction for him. So he would only need to generate about 0.8 WAR a year to be worth it.

Even if Moss is nothing more than an occasional pinch hitter, he fills a need on this team. And he really is a better fit than Kendrick. He would also provide some left-handed backup for Joseph if needed. He is coming off a 828 OPS against RHP last year. He actually is a left-handed hitter with power that this roster does not have. Give him 20 starts at 1B and 60 in LF on his strong platoon side and he ends up with 400 plate appearances. And there is a strong chance he is tradeable if young prospects force it.

I prefer Saunders. But why wouldn't we add Moss if the cost is less than $10 million a year and he fills a definite need on the team. We can't take back letting him go 5 years ago. But he is available now and it is really not clear that he would hold any young players back. Frankly it is guys like Galvis and Rupp that are more holding young players back. Stassi is not better than him.

[Slinging_Southpaw]

I'm not at all worried about overpaying Moss, I'm worried about overplaying him.

[zambonir]

A Moss/Kendrick platoon with occasional 1B ABs for the former does make sense. But if they both start 140 games that would not (unless of course trading Hernandez is still on the table).

[phillychuck]

I'm not at all worried about overpaying Moss, I'm worried about overplaying him.

This, exactly. If you pay him $7 million dollars a year, there is no chance that Altherr gets a fair trial in RF. First slump, he's on the bench.

I'd take a shot on Saunders b/c he's younger, I'd take a shot on JD Martinez b/c he's better. But I think I'd pass on Moss, unless it's a cheap 1-year deal where the PTB won't just hand him playing time because they paid for it.

[bkeich]

So if you were to sign Moss he would play if any of our current LF, RF, CF, 2B or 1B were unavailable. That is at least 100 games all by itself. Add in the games you intentional sit Joseph due to a tough RHP or just to give him a day off, intentional days off for the other 4 positions and I think we are ovverthinking this. A 9th position player isnt that hard to work into the lineup.

If and when Williams/Quinn is ready to take his spot Moss would be probably tradeable if we ate most of his salary and might even bring back a prospect.

This is a way to use all the extra cash to improve the rebuild. Stassi really doesn't offer this flexibility

[phillychuck]

Moss isn't pretty defensively at 1B, so I don't know how much you'd want to play him there.

[bkeich]

Most 1B are not good defensively, that is why they are there. It is widely considered the least important defensive position.

If Joseph is out for an extended time then maybe you look for a better replacement, but a LH OF/1B is exactly what this lineup needs IMHO. We are returning one of the worst offenses in recent history, the team should try to improve that and this is a minimal impact way of doing that.

[phillychuck]

the team should try to improve that and this is a minimal impact way of doing that.

I'd prefer a maximal impact way...

Seriously, though, pick a young guy who's blocked in AAA and hope you get lucky. Or give Stassi a try. Roll the dice and hope you hit a long-odds all-star. That's not Brandon Moss.

Now that I think of it, just trade for Trout.

[bkeich]

Oh, if there was a 25 year old that I was aware of that is a LH OF/1B I would be all in if he didnt cost anything noteable as a prospect. I don't really see that guy out there, but of course there are many here that follow the minors a great deal more than I do.

I would really like a guy on our bench to backup 1B. To me Joseph is the most suspect of our young players on the team, he was OK last year but his hitting was a bit of a surprise and he doesnt have to regress very much to be a bad option at 1B. In a year that we were all a little surprised how well he played he still only provided 0.5 WAR. I hope he continues to be an offensive force, and he was, but if he drops to a .750 OPS he is a replacement level player.

Some of this is that unless a young player is a hitting stud I always think 1B is a better place to put an older player that maybe a team made a mistake by signing or is at the end of a contract. I am not suggesting signing Moss to create this situation, but 1B is the easiest position to fill as in fact almost any player that can play a corner OF, 3B and maybe even C can be at least competent there usually. Young 1B have to be great hitters or their careers are just so limited.

[zambonir]

You could almost bring Ryan Howard back for $1 million and get everything you need in terms of a LH bench bat and 1B (if not an OF, but Kendrick is gonna play a lot if that's where he plays). Moss was better, but not by that much (except from the other side of the plate).

These are not easy decisions, honestly. I agree that Joseph is no sure thing. I agree Altherr is a question mark as well. But I don't really need to see the team win more games or hit better if this is still an evaluation season. It's hard to say. If the front office thinks Joseph can't play everyday, or that Altherr is a 4th OF post-injury, it becomes self-fulfilling to some extent. But they also might be wrong (and we've seen a CF and, maybe a 2B, prove a lot of people wrong. Rupp too, to some extent).

It's hard to get a read on their goals right now, really. Are Hernandez, Neris, maybe one starting pitcher still available for the right deal? Because overall, since Hellickson took the QO, it seems like they have moved more firmly in the direction of making this year's team better and giving Mackanin what he wants, albeit without any long-term tie-ups.

[allentown]

Because overall, since Hellickson took the QO, it seems like they have moved more firmly in the direction of making this year's team better and giving Mackanin what he wants, albeit without any long-term tiie-ups.

That's the problem for me with a Moss deal. I think we know enough avout Mackanin to know that the addition of Moss will mean the shunting aside of Altherr and the other young OFs. It will be Delmon Young and Domonic Brown all over again.

It's fine to bring in a superior, youngish OF who can help the team over the next at least several seasons, but to shunt aside young players for an old, not all that good guy who will play just one meaningless season seems the opposite of rebuilding.

And no, I don't want Moss taking time from Joseph at 1B. Joseph needs to learn to hit against the tough pitchers. He's still a youngish guy. He doesn't need rests. 1B is not a wear yourself out position. This is an exercise to make playing time for Moss at the expense of a younger player who can be a part of the future. How much rest did Rollins get when he was Joseph's age and playing a more energetic position and expending more energy running the bases? How many rest days did Ryan Howard get at Joseph's age? Howard was a year older in his first full Phillies season and played in all but 3 games; Rollins had 8 games he didn't play in.

[Soloman_grundy]

Honesty, it really boils down to the braintrust's desire to put a competitive team on the field in 2017. W and L and attendance are very real markers for teams and they take those things serious because, unlike the majority on this board, the average fan couldn't care less about the development of young players.

[julio]

Honesty, it really boils down to the braintrust's desire to put a competitive team on the field in 2017. W and L and attendance are very real markers for teams and they take those things serious because, unlike the majority on this board, the average fan couldn't care less about the development of young players.

Possibly true. The average fan just wants the Phillies to be consistently good, consistently in the post-season.

Of course, to get there, the development of young players is crucial. But does the "average fan" understand what an organization has to do to be consistently competitive? Perhaps not; Solomon_grundy may be correct that the "average fan" is clueless about this cause-effect relationship.

The challenge for the front office is to do what they can to improve the short-term product (2017), to give the "average fan" something they enjoy watching - and to do this without impeding the longer-term plan of player development, which is essential if the club is going to become, and remain, truly competitive.

I don't happen to think that this has to - or should - involve bringing in "names" - players the average fan will immediately recognize, because they've been banging around the league for years. I know that some (many?) fans tend to focus on such "names," because those are the only players they know about. But we've seen plenty of evidence that an "unknown" player can become very popular with average Phillies fans, relatively quickly. Chooch? Victorino? Odubel? All they have to do is perform for a while.

The Phils aren't going to sell a bunch of season tickets this winter by hawking Tommy Joseph - any more than they could sell season tickets two winters ago promoting their Rule 5 pick, Odubel Herrera (Who?!). But if Joseph hits 40 HR in 2017...he stars on the winter tour next winter, eh?

[BtownFan]

I am concerned about the lack of ability to get on base as well as the lack of power in the infield and outfield in the long-run with or without Moss. Odubel and Cesar can get on base but neither has power and neither is a terrible base-running threat as yet. In fact, outside of Cozens and Hoskins, the Phils system has little pop. Kendrick will add more pop out of the outfield than was available last year, but it is there and first base that teams typically carry their might...but Kendrick's history shows he is unlikely to achieve an OBP of .350 or better, which would make up for his lack of pop. Franco needs to ramp up his power output and OBP as well for the Phils to be atop the league. I get it that good defense goes a long way toward securing a pennant, but so do good eyes and strong bats.

I am mostly concerned that we're not seeing many players with OBP and power or with OBP and speed in the Phils' system like we had in Rollins, Utley, Werth, Abreu, Victorino, Howard, Chooch... Alfaro and Quinn are looking like they have potential. Puliin too, but can he field? Crawford needs to steal more. So unless Cozens and Hoskins can learn to hit MLB breaking balls, the Phils pharm looks rather weak in run production. From what hat are the Phils going to pull this set of rabbits?

[zambonir]

That's the problem for me with a Moss deal. I think we know enough avout Mackanin to know that the addition of Moss will mean the shunting aside of Altherr and the other young OFs. It will be Delmon Young and Domonic Brown all over again.

I still put it on Klentak, ultimately. If he signs Moss, Moss will play. Just like Buchholz has, no questions, asked, bumped a young starter. So if it happens, he is either prioritizing short-term goals or had decided Altherr is not ready or can't be relied on to play 100 games this year.

Mind you, this is a complete non-story, nobody has actually reported the Phillies are interested in Moss. A columnist at NJ.com speculated he could make sense for them and a fan blog ran a headline with a question mark in it (which may or may not mean Betteridge's Law).

[andyb]

Right now we basically have one legitimate outfielder. Then we have 2 guys in Altherr and Kendrick that both bat right handed. I am not sure how serious they are about Quinn, but the presence of a Moss does not necessarily detract from playing Altherr. There are 2 non-Herrera positions available, not 1.

The excuse of "what Mackanin will do" does not cut it for me. This team needs a left-handed power bat somewhere, anywhere. That bat can easily be a non-starting 4th OF that platoons occasionally. If Mackanin keeps playing vets at the expense of deserving young players you replace Mackanin. Conversely if Altherr is mediocre, we need some options. If Joseph regresses we need some options. If Kendrick is dealt we need some options. Klentak is the boss and if the manager does not play the people he thinks should be playing then he should replace the manager. After all if a Moss or equivalent is signed that will be Klentak's decision also.

[BtownFan]

http://www.fanragsports.com/mlb/heyman-strange-market-encarnacion-dozen-sluggers-remain/ Well, Heyman, at least, says the Phils have shown interest in Moss.