2022 Phillies Wall of Fame

zambonir · Aug '22

lol

This is a franchise that needs to win five more games to reach 10,000 victories but that reached 10,000 losses in 2007 ... 15 years ago. This is a franchise that reached the postseason just once in a 23-year period (1984 to 2006) and now is trying to end a 10-year streak without October baseball. This is a franchise that has only so many wells of great teams and players from which to draw, and those wells are only so deep.

There are the late 1970s-early 1980s clubs. There is the Macho Row team that won the 1993 NL pennant. There is the mini-dynasty of 2007-11. Yes, in the years ahead, a host of certain inductees will become eligible for the Wall: Jimmy Rollins, Chase Utley, Ryan Howard, Cole Hamels, more. It has been a struggle for the Phillies to get to those more deserving stars, though. Before McBride and Reed, the team’s most recent Wall of Fame inductee was Manny Trillo, also a standout on the ‘80 team, also here just four years. Jim Thome, inducted in 2016, had a great-but-brief tenure with the Phillies: three years. If the Phillies make the playoffs this season, the pool of Wall of Fame candidates and popular Alumni Weekend attendees would immediately double. Hell, Kyle Schwarber might be inducted next year.

Philsmania · Aug '22

You mean Rollins?

I would agree that Rolen belongs on the WOF but I would draw the line at retiring his number. Rolen never played on a Phillies team that did anything special (like Dick Allen did in 1964 and 1976) and he wasn't aroud long enough to fall into the "many years of distinction with the Phillies despite playing for bad teams" honor (like Chuck Klein who played the better part of a decade primarily with the Phillies). And, also unlike Allen, he hasn't shown any interest in burying the hatchet with Philadelphia. And, Allen also has the distinction of being the Phillies' first black star player. If Rolen does get into Cooperstown, it's a jumpshot in terms of whether he wears a Phillies or a Cardinals cap. The greater body of work was in Philadelphia but his very best seasons and greatest moments were in St. Louis. He did leave both places somewhat accrimoniously though, so it wouldn't surprise me if he does the blank cap thing.

VoteForKalas · Aug '22

Philsmania:

I would agree that Rolen belongs on the WOF but I would draw the line at retiring his number. Rolen never played on a Phillies team that did anything special (like Dick Allen did in 1964 and 1976) and he wasn't aroud long enough to fall into the "many years of distinction with the Phillies despite playing for bad teams" honor (like Chuck Klein who played the better part of a decade primarily with the Phillies). And, also unlike Allen, he hasn't shown any interest in burying the hatchet with Philadelphia. And, Allen also has the distinction of being the Phillies' first black star player. If Rolen does get into Cooperstown, it's a jumpshot in terms of whether he wears a Phillies or a Cardinals cap. The greater body of work was in Philadelphia but his very best seasons and greatest moments were in St. Louis. He did leave both places somewhat accrimoniously though, so it wouldn't surprise me if he does the blank cap thing.

I disagree that team success is needed for a player to be put on the WOF.

Rolen was the best Phillies 3B since Schmidt and might have had a case league-wide while he played. He was clearly one of the best players on those Phillies teams - only Schilling and Abreu would have a case against him IMO.

Yes, he had to leave PHL to win a ring and get the accolades he deserved and that is mostly on the Phillies, not Rolen in my estimation. If that poisoned the well for him here, that is simply another stain on the organization. They need to make an effort to bring him back and honor him. I would be shocked if Rolen is not respectful of that honor and fails to take it seriously.

Philsmania · Aug '22

VoteForKalas:

Philsmania:

I would agree that Rolen belongs on the WOF but I would draw the line at retiring his number. Rolen never played on a Phillies team that did anything special (like Dick Allen did in 1964 and 1976) and he wasn't aroud long enough to fall into the "many years of distinction with the Phillies despite playing for bad teams" honor (like Chuck Klein who played the better part of a decade primarily with the Phillies). And, also unlike Allen, he hasn't shown any interest in burying the hatchet with Philadelphia. And, Allen also has the distinction of being the Phillies' first black star player. If Rolen does get into Cooperstown, it's a jumpshot in terms of whether he wears a Phillies or a Cardinals cap. The greater body of work was in Philadelphia but his very best seasons and greatest moments were in St. Louis. He did leave both places somewhat accrimoniously though, so it wouldn't surprise me if he does the blank cap thing.
I disagree that team success is needed for a player to be put on the WOF.

Rolen was the best Phillies 3B since Schmidt and might have had a case league-wide while he played. He was clearly one of the best players on those Phillies teams - only Schilling and Abreu would have a case against him IMO.

Yes, he had to leave PHL to win a ring and get the accolades he deserved and that is mostly on the Phillies, not Rolen in my estimation. If that poisoned the well for him here, that is simply another stain on the organization. They need to make an effort to bring him back and honor him. I would be shocked if Rolen is not respectful of that honor and fails to take it seriously.

I said he belongs on the WOF but that they should not retire #17 for him, that's what I was trying to say.

zambonir · Aug '22

You're going back to the older stuff in this thread but I meant Rolen was going to put an end to the policy of Hall of Famers having their Phillies' numbers retired. He is going to get into the Hof and will not have his number retired. He should of course be on the WoF (and already should have been) but clearly the tension is still there.

Whether Rollins, Utley and Howard also put an end to the policy in the other direction (i.e. you don't have to be in the Hall to get your number retired) remains to be seen, but is likely.

BostonRoss · Aug '22

How long do you have to be retired to be considered? It's been over five years for Rollins and Howard.

Regardless of whether those guys are eligible yet, they've made some odd choices over the last few years in my opinion. Bake is questionable, having been a Phillie for only five years. Reed was a Phillie for longer, but he was less valuable since he was a relief pitcher (and not even the main one). Trillo had an even shorter tenure. Sure, they were all important parts of the 1980 team, but so were a lot of others (Ruthven, Lonnie Smith, even Marty Bystrom). Who's next, Luis Aguayo?

I guess there are a lot of Whiz Kids on the Wall as well, but they were all Phillies for at least a decade. I wonder why Andy Seminick isn't there. He was even a coach for a while.

Besides Seminick, there are some longer term Phillies who never seem to be considered. Tony Gonzalez comes to mind. There were a lot of chances to select him before he died last year, and there are plenty of others from the 1964 team included. I wonder if he didn't want the honor. I would rather see guys with longer résumés get in than short timers.

zambonir · Aug '22

They lowered the threshold to four years so they could put Thome in in 2016 (still a questionable decision IMO though I get the intangibles). I think the cancellation of Rose in 2017 and the death of Halladay (who also needed the four-year rule) kind of messed up their timeline. As did the pandemic, big-time. Had they been able to have the 40th anniversary that year they could have just done Trillo and left it at that. But once they knew that wasn't going to be until 2022 that opened the door for these guys.

I think they are also waiting for Utley, Rollins and Howard to all be eligible - and HOF-eligible - together so they can decide once and for all how to handle it. The '80s overkill was weird for sure, but it was important to finally do Abreu. Now they should do Rolen before going all-in on the '08 team (besides Charlie and Gillick who are already covered).

BostonRoss · Aug '22

They definitely had to honor Abreu. And I have no problem with Hall of Famers (and Halladay was a special case). If Rolen wasn't ready to do this yet, I would have gone with Rollins, or one of those old timers. If I had to pick a short-timer, I might have gone with Cliff Lee.

zambonir · Aug '22

Sidenote: Rollins didn't officially retire until 2019. Howard as well.

BostonRoss · Aug '22

Well, they were both eligible for Cooperstown.

zambonir · Aug '22

So is it measured by last game played or official retirement papers, and is the Hall's criteria different from the team's? This would also be applicable to Hamels, for instance.

BostonRoss · Aug '22

I guess the team can do whatever they want since they have already changed the rules. It’s hard to understand why they would be more restrictive than Cooperstown. If they wanted to select any of the 2008 team already, they could.

Philsmania · Aug '22

BostonRoss:

How long do you have to be retired to be considered? It's been over five years for Rollins and Howard.

Regardless of whether those guys are eligible yet, they've made some odd choices over the last few years in my opinion. Bake is questionable, having been a Phillie for only five years. Reed was a Phillie for longer, but he was less valuable since he was a relief pitcher (and not even the main one). Trillo had an even shorter tenure. Sure, they were all important parts of the 1980 team, but so were a lot of others (Ruthven, Lonnie Smith, even Marty Bystrom). Who's next, Luis Aguayo?

I guess there are a lot of Whiz Kids on the Wall as well, but they were all Phillies for at least a decade. I wonder why Andy Seminick isn't there. He was even a coach for a while.

Besides Seminick, there are some longer term Phillies who never seem to be considered. Tony Gonzalez comes to mind. There were a lot of chances to select him before he died last year, and there are plenty of others from the 1964 team included. I wonder if he didn't want the honor. I would rather see guys with longer résumés get in than short timers.

Tug got all the glory in 1980--and had, shall we say, personality--but over the long haul, Reed was really the rock of that bullpen from 1976-83. And, Trillo was the 1980 NLCS MVP, not insignificant.

Seminick, yes, but the cadre of fans who actually remember him is probably fading as well. Shoot, how many people out there can claim to have been one-time Philadelphia Athletics fans? A kidnergarten kid who rooted for them in their last season here in 1954 would be 73 now.

zambonir · Aug '22

Yeah clearly the HoF goes with last game played not when you officially retire (so long as you don't play).

I do think they are waiting for Chase, and/or still deciding whether to retire the three numbers. And while Burrell (a near lifelong Phillie) and Charlie and Gillick and Halladay are already on, they probably want to do the Big 3 before considering Chooch and Victorino. Werth may be more of a longshot since he's already done it with the Nats.

If none of these things were considerations I would think you just do Lidge first. There was also that one year where Jamie Moyer was on the ballot and then he never was again. I don't know if he fell out with the team once the broadcasting didn't work out or if it was all this other stuff.

And what about Brett Myers?

andyb · Aug '22

Do we think Jimmy has the best HOF chances? My data-centric view was more 50% for Chase, 30% for Jimmy, and like 2% for Ryan in terms of their chances of eventually getting in. I could see where Jimmy gets more intangible support from the veteran's committee since he has the counting stats and Gold Gloves, but one would hope the electorate is educated enough these days to see Chase is a little bit ahead on career impact (not too mention peak value).

BostonRoss · Aug '22

I wonder whether Chase has some baggage from "the slide." I've heard from some New Yorkers that they still haven't forgiven him.

Philsmania · Aug '22

This SI writer says Jimmy for the Hall and that he was the best SS of his time in the NL and the best of his era period not named Derek Jeter.

schillingfan · Aug '22

I blame David Bell if Chase doesn’t get in. He cost Chass at least a year at the height of his abilities I remember taking a sign to a Barons game saying “Free Chase Utley” when they sent him back to AAA for the third year.

julio · Aug '22

David Bell didn't deny Utley that year at second base. I mean, yes, David Bell was selfish, and Utley lost that year in the bigs. But David Bell didn't make that decison; that was spinelessness in the front office, an unwillingness to actually lead, to actually manage. Selfish players have always existed; good organizations do not allow such players to drive their decision-making.

BostonRoss · Aug '22

It's interesting to remember that David Bell was actually very good in 2004, a 4.4 WAR season for him. Bell seemed to fall apart right at the time they traded Polanco.

(I'm not arguing that Utley shouldn't have been playing more and earlier, and that he was clearly the future for the Phillies at that time.).

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