Wait 'Til Who Knows When (Certainly not 2021!) ... (Winter 20-21 Off-Season Realism)

[flyers19rw]

The combination of evaluation and development can not be separated. If a club makes the wrong decision in evaluation (ex.-draft choices; LA signees; etc.)) there is little to develop. That’s not to say that the player development side of the organization is without criticism. As the article states, the constant flux of managers and coaches at all levels doesn’t create a system conducive to obtaining the best results out of prospects. Even though changes have been made in the scouting and development systems, there has been little progress. Surely that is indicative of ineptitude at high levels.

[el-pietro]

https://twitter.com/Joelsherman1/status/1334887183648497666?s=19

If this is accurate its big news

[flyers19rw]

For Levine, coming to Philly from the Twins to be the GM would be sort of a lateral step unless the money is huge. IIRC, he and Josh Byrnes played on the Haverford baseball team together. The Phillies might be interested in his evaluation of Byrnes more than they are in hiring Levine unless Levine is going to be the head of baseball operations.

[Philsmania]

I guess Levine is the mystery candidate. Twins changed their minds on not giving the Phillies permission to speak with him?

[zambonir]

The reports keep swinging back and forth on whether the Phillies are hiring a GM or a head of baseball operations. Seems to me it is very clearly the latter, going back to GM would be a demotion for Hill, and you couldn't hire Levine to be GM. And while Byrnes is not currently a GM he's done it twice.

Not to mention it would be dumb to hire a GM and then hire his new boss, even if you can't rule out dumb. It just makes more sense to hire a President, get MacPhail out, and then you could still let Rice finish the year before the new hire brings in his own team.

Levine plus Byrnes would be interesting.

Twins GM Thad Levine is candidate to run Philadelphia Phillies

I don't think the Twins ever denied permission (nor could they, for baseball ops). It was more that Levine wasn't looking to leave. Or maybe they denied the Mets permission.

[andyb]

All 3 of these candidates are for the President position, so it is considered a promotion from GM. They could not talk to Levine without offering a position that was a promotion without the Twins' permission.

It does seem to me that they have decided to fill the President's role and would prefer someone who has been a GM in that spot. That makes sense than hiring a new GM who would have to report to a new President in a year. The new President also would still have Rice and Klentak working for him (mainly Rice), so that would at least enable broad decisions on the direction of the organization. The new President could set a budget and then offer guidelines about whether they wanted to trade significant prospects. This would allow Rice to at least move on from the current paralysis that is probably hurting any negotiations for big ticket items like Realmuto.

[allentown]

That is a rather awful list of trades.

[Philsmania]

The Phillies have been doing things bass ackwards for a while. They hired a new scouting director in Almaraz before hiring a new GM in Klentak. Then they hired a new farm director in Bonifay and scouting director in Barber before hiring a new GM. You got to let your people at the top pick their own people.

[zambonir]

The Phillies have been doing things bass ackwards for a while. They hired a new scouting director in Almaraz before hiring a new GM in Klentak. Then they hired a new farm director in Bonifay and scouting director in Barber before hiring a new GM. You got to let your people at the top pick their own people.

Often this is because someone is trying to save their own job. Firing Wolever gave Amaro a little bit of cover. Bonifay doesn't really count, he worked for Klentak for a full two years. They mystery there is why Klentak kept all of the inherited people on to begin with.

And of course Klentak had nothing to do with hiring Girardi. Barber, who knows, we don't really even know for sure if Almaraz leaving was 100% his choice.

But once they get a President who actually runs things hands-on, a la Theo and Andrew Friedman and so many of the others, instead of a distant over-delegator like MacPhail, it won't really matter if there's no one with the GM title for a while, or if Rice has it. The Dodgers still don't have a GM since Zaidi left.

It just stinks we're doing this again - the new president and GM are going to spend the next 1-2 years evaluating the roster and the front office and the development staff. I'm sure they are still intent on taking a run at contention this year, though who knows what is being said by the job candidates.

[allentown]

I'm sure they are still intent on taking a run at contention this year,

I wouldn't count on that. Everything Middleton has said suggests that 2021 is going to be a waste year. Perhaps if Covid seems under control by March, they will make a belated effort to contend, but all of the best options will be long gone, leaving only the totally inappropriate one of trading what little young talent we have for vets. A forward-thinking organization would be planning for a return to normalcy sometime around June.

[zambonir]

We assume the worst every year! I think they really want to sign JT. I think they will consider adding another middle IF should they trade Segura. Certainly they have to sign a reliever or two. Maybe not a starter (at least of any renown).

And if they don't sign JT they will add a bat and a catcher, though the former will depend in part on the DH situation.

Many, if not all of these things can be done while still cutting payroll. And what Middleton is saying is not different from any other owner, except Cohen. Doesn't mean I agree with it, or like it, but based on yesterday and other chatter it doesn't look like the Phillies will do anything nearly as drastic as the Central division teams. And since this team's big FA signings have generally not been great, I'd much rather try to find a few spare parts and diamonds in the rough. If they actually hire someone before January 15 (it's unlikely spring training is going to start on time) the new person will be able to make some moves.

Alternately, if they hire someone who walks up to the podium and says he's going full rebuild, that'd be okay too. I don't know that anyone proposing that can get the job, but we shall see.

[David_Criss]

https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/1334974631661408256
Ronald Torreyes agreed to terms on a new minors deal with the Phillies

[andyb]

Levine is out as a candidate:
https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/1335071756470669313

[Philsmania]

I suspect Levine will be PBO in MN eventually.

[zambonir]

Wow that was fast.

I suspect Levine will be PBO in MN eventually.

Probably, but Levine is 12 years older than his boss, so a big market team would have to try and poach Falvey, or they'd have to make him the non-baseball/overall President. Seems like they just like working together and like living in Minneapolis (which is a great town and place to raise a family if you don't mind the winter).

His heart didn't really seem in it to begin with, the Phillies probably weren't going to write a big enough check, nor can they present themselves as a an organization anyone would be crazy to turn down.

Rangers just missed the chance to bring him back too, they kicked Daniels upstairs and hired the other Chris Young (who turned down the Mets but already lives in Dallas).

[Patchmk88]

He’s the only one on the list that I really wanted. Shame...

[flyers19rw]

I can live with Byrnes in the top level of the organization. The question is how high? To make him the head of baseball ops is a big move for him. Maybe he’s the guy for that; maybe not.

[zambonir]

I don't think it's that big a leap. He's 50 years old. He's been a GM twice. He's been employed at a high level (scouting director and up) for 22 years. He's worked for the Red Sox, Dbacks, Padres, and Dodgers as well as the Indians and Rockies. Two championships as an assistant. That's actually far more high-level experience than Levine in the same amount of years. Levine's only been a GM for four years, and only as a subordinate. And his boss is even younger/less experienced. So are Friedman and Zaidi for that matter, though obviously Friedman has achieved a lot.

It's mostly semantics anyway. If you were the kind of candidate who could be the GM five years ago, you can be the president of baseball ops now. The difference is really the caliber of your #2, not the caliber of the top guy. The only people who are qualified to be a President on paper are either unhirable from their current jobs, or they are MacPhail, Gillick, Alderson types. We just drew the shortest straw of that group (including Gillick not being that great a choice the second time around).

[saycheese]

Wow, this is going to be some offseason. Excuse me while I have Norman Brahman flashbacks.

Sources: Phillies open to trade offers for Wheeler

[zambonir]

Well, isn't that fun.

The hilarious part is that with the Rays shopping Snell and the Reds shopping Gray and what might be a soft free agent market, can they even get a good return for him?

But also - while there's nothing good one can say about the Phillies right now, and them deciding to behave like the Reds or the Rays would be a real unfortunate blast from the past - there might not be much to this. LIke, they'll listen to offers, but they're not gonna salary-dump him in a bad deal. I hope I'm not wrong.

If they're really gonna do this, I hope they mean it, not just that they want to cut payroll and still pretend they have a competitive major league team. It should be the first of many moves for another rebuild. But then they really do have to sell Harper on that plan. Certainly you can't trade Wheeler so you can afford Realmuto.