The New Unending Flyers thread

[Aquapong]

Hayes to the Blues for a sixth round pick in 2024. I guess the main piece for the Blues in that deal was Sanheim, but needed to move Krug to make it happen.

[zambonir]

But what's the $ part, given that low return?

[zambonir]

Weeke's tweet says there still might be another component, we'll see I guess.

The #Flyers are in the process of completing a trade to send Kevin Hayes to #stlblues .

They are retaining half of Hayes' salary for the remaining three years of his deal, resulting in a cap hit of $3,571,428 for STL.

First to report trade: @KevinWeekes .

— Frank Seravalli ( @frank_seravalli ) June 27, 2023

[Aquapong]

We better not retain much at all. Other teams could see Torts and he just didn’t mesh and the new powers that be just want Hayes gone, so they kind of have us over a barrel.

Eta: this is a sweetheart deal for the Blues if these are the final terms.

[zambonir]

Yeah, the Flyers lacked leverage but as a $3.5 million player Hayes should have had a little more value. Things have just not gone well for them in the last 24 hours between Krug not waiving his NMC and the D'Angelo snafu and they probably do still need him off the books to move forward with the RFAs.

Sanheim will presumably not include any retained salary if he goes.

[zambonir]

Hearing that there isn't another component to the Hayes trade. It's just Hayes for a 6th round pick, with 50% salary retention.

— Charlie O'Connor ( @charlieo_conn ) June 27, 2023

[phillychuck]

Wow that's an awful trade for the Flyers. Guess that's all he was worth.

[zambonir]

It seems like they really had something that worked for them with the bigger deal and once it fell apart they took the bird in hand (and presumably hadn't gotten very far with him as far as any better offers from other teams).

As a pure salary dump it still has value even if the cap space isn't utilized until next year or the year after (but could also be on extensions this year). And in terms of it clearing a space to let a younger player take that ice time.

But - and certainly we've seen this with the Phillies too - they certainly tanked his value by the way they used him and let things play out publicly. Heck, if he was such a negative it's too bad they didn't use him more and finished better in the draft order!

[bkeich]

Since Torts will most likely be gone after next season also, this was a horrendous deal. Hard to believe there wasn't a better deal somewhere, they got almost nothing.

For some reason I guess they wanted to get this done before the draft (pick we got isn't until next year I believe). I think it would have been better to hold out for more.

[zambonir]

I don't know why you think that. Briere seems all-in on him and so does Hilferty. Most media members believe he is the most influential member of the hockey department, and certainly Torts and Briere had to be on the same page about this heading out of exit interviews.

Considering there is no reason to expect the team to win over the next two years, what would get him fired? I can see them making a change or passing the baton in the last year of his contract if they don't extend him. But even if he did step aside after next season they wouldn't have wanted to keep Hayes.

Granted we can still default to thinking the Flyers are just terrible at everything but really the deal is so bad that you have to assume no other team was ready to top it. And that they do have plans for the cap space (even if it's just logistical) as well as, most likely, plans to use all of their retention slots both this year and next. Moving Hayes and presumably D'Angelo leaves them just one for this year.

[Aquapong]

We better not let TK go for some deal like this. If we don’t get a good offer for him, hang on to him. With he and Atkinson, we could have two valuable trade deadline chips if Cam shows he healthy and productive.

[zambonir]

They won't let TK go for nothing. Or retain salary. He just doesn't have any value in this draft (i.e. the Flyers would want some really good picks in this draft as part of the deal but only teams with bad draft position would want TK).

[bkeich]

I think they managed to get Torts to sign on last year based on the "retool" dream, which was an obvious dream, but was obviously wrong. Now, we have an older coach who is going to see a horrible team on the ice this year and I suspect he will bail out rather than spend years trying to build. It isn't like we have a strong, young core coming, we have a few players in the minors, but our once strong farm system pretty much petered out.

In my opinion we are looking at a complete build. This will take more years than Torts will be interested in sticking around for.

[Aquapong]

Watching some video on the potential guys. Defensemen are harder for me to pick out because my kid plays offense and I don’t know the nuts and bolts of playing defense.

Bedard, Fantilli, Smith, and Carlson seem to be a consensus 1-4. We may have the choices of Michkov, Moore, Leonard, Dvorsky, Wood, and Perrault. The D men are supposedly a reach for top 10 picks anyway.

I’m not feeling Dvorsky or Moore. Wood looked ok but so many of his goals are from one area of the ice.

Michkov…very quick release and really good anticipation. Sees the shooting lanes before they open up and the shot is already on the way. His size is an issue I think. If he can stay in open ice like Matt Barzal, he could be really good.

Perrault looked pretty solid. Shifty. Plays well off the puck. Skill wise it seems he’s solid at everything but nothing really stands out. He wouldn’t be a bad pick if he’s there. Honestly Will Smith kept jumping out on the videos while watching Perrault. He’s going to be good.

Benson was another solid player, but I think we have a virtually identical prospect with Brink. Good vision and passer.

I really liked Leonard, but I don’t think he’ll last to 7.

If for some draft night character issue pops up and Bedard, Smith, or Fantilli drop. I’d run to the podium and not look back. I haven’t looked at Carlson, but I’m sure the Flyers have done their due diligence. I imagine he’s in the same category.

My pick is Leonard if he’s there, then Michkov even if we’ve got wait for him. I think they are going to be picks 5 and 6 anyway. I think our pick will likely be Wood, Perrault, or Benson. They all have the potential to be a good player, but I don’t think we’re good to get an elite player here. I’d be disappointed with Dvorsky or Moore because I think we’d be reaching just because they are centers.

[zambonir]

I just don't think Torts has any other NHL head coaching jobs in his future. He's making $4 million a year and the Flyers were also paying Vigneault $5 million this year and will again next year. He may kick himself upstairs but he won't be able to leave. Nor is there necessarily a Cup-contender that will want him and meet his price. It's been 20 years since he won a Cup and 10 since he even got close. Not sure anyone other than the Flyers would have hired him this last time either.

Of course, he's Torts, he could get himself fired by acting out badly enough. But that would also get his entire staff fired. And it does not seem to be where things are right now. I think he'll still be working for the Flyers (as an advisor) in 2026 and 2027 unless Hilferty, Briere and Jones also aren't running the team by then.

[bkeich]

Given how he acted last year, maybe I am just being optimistic that he will quit or get fired. I can't see him as a "build a young team" kinda coach, I assume he was looking for a team that wanted that final kick in the ... to get over the top. I may be wrong, but I (optimistically) hope thee as t he realizes that he is not going to win here.

His continued presence on this team is Fletcher's last joke to this franchise. It seems like everyone who could play a little can't wait to get off this team, I assume he is the main reason. It is amazing how often going to the press with complaints about players never works and yet some managers/coaches still do it

[zambonir]

Hilferty called Tortorella the franchise's "spiritual leader." Briere and Jones pretty much had to agree he would be the coach to get their jobs (or at least Jones did compared to other candidates who wouldn't agree to that; I'm not sure Briere had any competition for his job).

And Torts has also been the guy who said the team needed to rebuild before anybody else did. Even when he took the job he had to know they weren't going to make the playoffs the first two years (though I suppose Fletcher's belief was that a healthier group could have) and would lucky to simply be in the mix the rest of his deal.

He is also not a coach who has historically struggled to develop players. They just all aren't his kind of players (and vice-versa). I think this is the job he wants. He's won the Cup, and there's not another opportunity for him, so rebuilding this team and setting himself up for a sweet retirement paycheck as the next Bill Barber is hard to beat. And he's obviously hoping one of his assistants succeeds him.

I don't think Torts is the reason most guys want off the team either. It's just that they want to win. And it's a two-way street with most of those guys, as far as being flawed players or people. If the likes of Hart (assuming he's not the target of a criminal investigation), TK, Laughton or Couts start actively begging to be shipped out, that would more worrisome.

[zambonir]

One thing I didn't fully realize is that salary retention spots count for as long as they are on the books. You only get three. So if the Flyers move D'Angelo now and Atkinson at the deadline (unless he bounces back enough to where they could get value on him w/o it) they will only have one next year (once D'Angelo's deal expires) for, say, Risto. Or Couts, perhaps, but maybe he's a Flyer until they truly reach the crossroads of competing again.

I think that might also explain why they'd like to unload Sanheim ASAP. If he can get a return with no salary retention that counts for something. Also O'Connnor's take is that they may find a way to take on salary (filling the space left by Hayes' 50%) in a deal bringing back a draft pick this week.

Kevin Hayes' time with Flyers ends with a whimper, not a bang, with trade to...

[Aquapong]

Seems several teams are still calling on Sanheim. We may see him traded today yet. His no trade protection kicks in on July 1st, but I would think he wouldn’t mind leaving with a rebuild going on.

[zambonir]

Ah, well, that would also explain why they're eager to trade him. I'm sure he would still happily leave - a lot easier to pick up and leave at the beginning of an eight-year deal than in the middle - but he could also reject certain destinations so why risk it?