The New New Unending Flyers thread

[zambonir]

Yes but the legal system only involves the legal system. The standard to be convicted of specific crimes beyond all reasonable doubt should be high. The standard to play professional sports or have the support of fans is lower. Julio Urias and Trevor Bauer have not been convicted of any crimes but they did violate MLB policy. The NHL does not have the same process.

And Sedona Prince has not been charged or arrested for any crimes but with four accusations against her, she went undrafted by the WNBA yesterday when she was probably a low first or high second.

Obviously not all fans will agree or all owners will feel the same but it is a choice you can make or not make, just like you assess the character of any player on your team (something teams often miss badly on, even if they're not criminals).

What I think is interesting from a hockey perspective is that because Bettman did not impose any discipline, all those players became free agents. And none of the teams issued qualifying offers. Had they been suspended it might have been possible for teams to retain rights. I can't recall, when Hart took his leave of absence did he forfeit his remaining salary, and did it not count against the cap?

[phillychuck]

I'm an idealist. While I believe OJ killed his wife and I wouldn't hang out with him at a party if he were alive, I also believe that he was found not guilty by a jury and therefore my personal opinion (and the personal opinion of all the rest of the population) is irrelevant, or at least it should be. I believe the same thing about people who were convicted and served their time. That’s what it means to live in a country of laws and not of men. We have to actually buy in to the legal system or it’s just a sham, a thing we like to say to other countries but really isn’t true.

[zambonir]

Hypothetical: one of the bedrocks of our legal system (and Canada's too) is innocent until proven guilty, which I certainly believe in. Shouldn't Hart be allowed to play now? As it is he's not even allowed to be in America (let alone work here).

[zambonir]

Flyers have signed Kaplan (burning this year) and put Bump on an ATO (so he'll start 3-year deal next year).

Flyers sign prospects Alex Bump, Devin Kaplan to join organization

[phillychuck]

While Hart may be innocent until a court decides otherwise, when actions or investigations are pending, a private entity, like an employer, is entitled to take measures that the government itself could not take. So the Canadian government and the US government did not tell Hart he couldn't play, but their NHL did. It's their right to do that, and maybe if they didn't their fan base would have demanded it. I'm pretty sure there are clauses in all sports contracts that allow leagues to suspend or otherwise restrict players pending legal action.

[zambonir]

Well, yes. But an employer can also just say they don't want to hire someone who may have committed sexual assault, domestic violence or even drunk driving, regardless of what a court or jury decides. And in MLB and NFL's case they explicitly can render their own punishment separate from the legal system just because someone's been accused (as with Urias and Herrera).

DeShaun Watson has also never been charged with a crime, but I don't know many people who don't think he committed some, and the NFL has actually made its policy even stricter since his suspension.

The NHL has not said these guys can't play, nor did it suspend them. They all took a leave of absence, and their teams all chose not to offer them contracts after last year. Now, I'm sure the players all realized there was nothing in it for them to try to play - either with the league or the court of public opinion. And Hart is not allowed in the US because he's Canadian and has been charged with a crime there.

Another quirk - this incident would not violate any conduct clause in their NHL contract because none of them were signed to NHL contracts at the time it occurred.

[phillychuck]

The contract thing is weird. As I said, once the legal action is over, I support moving on and letting people recover their lives, and try to be a benefit to society if they can.

[zambonir]

I guess Hart was signed to his deal at the time of the incident. He just hadn't actually gone pro yet. Had there been charges filed at the time of the incident he might have never played a game for the team, or at least would have been in this same 1-2 year limbo before he'd ever done so.

[bigegypt0417]

Boston loses in OT so not sure how tie breakers work...

[Docs]

Ties are broken by teams' total number of regulation wins (RW), regulation and non-shootout overtime wins (ROW), and then head-to-head if still tied

If the flyers lose to Buffalo then Boston and Philly will have identical records, and Boston won the head to head series.

Seattle already has more regulation wins than Philly or Boston so if it’s a three way tie i think it’s Philly, Boston, then Seattle.

Of course the flyers could still beat Buffalo

[phillychuck]

Hockey players can’t tank, it’s not in the nature of physical, collision sports. Flyers will kill Buffalo and finish 7th in the lottery. Unless they suit me up to play goalie.

[bigegypt0417]

Buffalo has been a decent team since late march...this will be a game that could go either way.

[Docs]

finish 7th in the lottery

Let me know if you need money for bus fare, glad to pitch in because 8th is still in play

[xogfog]

Flyers should play with an empty net the whole game.

[jimbomill]

I support moving on and letting people recover their lives, and try to be a benefit to society if they can.

Aye - same thing here .

[zambonir]

And I support victims of sexual assault and rape who are generally not well-served by the criminal justice system or the culture of professional sports (and junior hockey in particular). The fact that the leagues (and the unions) have taken steps for greater accountability internally is step in the right direction to to address that imbalance, as is the fact that it's become a PR negative to sign such players.

Listen, Carter Hart was 18 when he allegedly did this. Of course he should be able to move on from his life, learn, grow, and be a benefit to society. Maybe DeShaun Watson should be able to to as well. But all of that assumes accountability and remorse, if not legal punishment, first.

The social debate aside I just think it's very unlikely Carter Hart is at all part of the Flyers' plans.

[Docs]

My original post said if he clears his current legal issues. It sounds like you have already convicted him in your mind and feel he should be punished before he gets his day in court. I don’t see why we can’t just be patient and see how this plays out and go from there rather than put the cart before the horse.

[Austinfan]

Though Poehling is also a good example of a player with raw talent finally getting into a situation where he can play regular minutes, polish his game, and take advantage of an opportunity to move up the lineup. That third line with Pelletier and Tippett is looking very good. Poehling is showing a goal scoring knack I didn't think he had, a plus skater with average instincts and decent PK guy, he's raised his game this season.

[Docs]

I think these are the scenarios for the last game, kind of lame in my opinion that everyone doesn’t play on the last day of the season it’s more exciting that way.

Regulation loss - 4th
OT loss - 6th
OT win - 7th
Regulation win - 8th

[Austinfan]

Kurz isn't nearly as good as Charlie.

He simply glosses over St Louis using a 2nd and 3rd rd offer sheet, it's one thing to gamble at that cost, quite another to give up a high 1st plus for an unproven player. I'll trade the Calgary pick for a young NHL player with upside in a heartbeat.

Briere basically traded a 4th and 6th for Grebenkin in the Laughton deal, a minor deal at low cost that could have a high payoff. These kinds of deals are far more likely than a mega-deal for someone else's question mark (no one trades young top six centers). Make enough low cost gambles and you're likely to hit on a couple, see FLA with Verhaeghe, Forsling and Montour, for example.