Racial composition of the 2023 Phils (split--posts not in order)

[rpmcmurphy]

Actually, I understand German’s position here, and I don’t take a back seat to anyone when it comes to a progressive stance on civil rights issues. I am an old white guy, but I have 3 grandchildren of color, and I have experienced sick expressions of racism in their presence. My racism antennae are pretty fine tuned, but it honestly never occurred to me (until it was noted here) that the Phillies starting lineup would be all-white. I view it more as a statistical anomaly rather than a nefarious plot to limit the number of non-whites on the roster. Unless and until someone can prove racism in the policies of the present braintrust, I will continue to view it in that way. The last couple of months have been so much fun, and the future looks so exciting. It just seems that some people aren’t happy unless they can find some scab to pick at - even if that scab is 50 years old.

[julio]

The starting lineup will not be all-white when Sosa starts; if you include the pitcher in the “starting lineup,” it won’t be all-white in about 40% of the games that Sosa doesn’t start.

[Philsmania]

The beloved, also-really-bonded-with-Philadelphia '93 team was also very white, aside from platoon players Thompson, Chamberlain and Duncan. POC were found on the bench (Batiste and Jordan), in the rotation (Rivera) and in the bullpen (DeLeon until he was dealt).

The 2008 Phillies, by contrast, starting lineup was a sheer rainbow with African-Americans (Rollins and Howard), Latinos (Ruiz and Feliz) and a part-Asian (Victorino). Interestingly, the rotation, bench and bullpen were almost all white (aside from Taguchi and Romero).

[andyb]

And Castellanos is still half Cuban.

[zambonir]

And it wasn't all-white last year (with or without Castellanos), my bad to have thrown that in there versus "no American Black players."

Nor is it an attack on the team, or even a complaint. But the history and underlying reasons/context for all of it is also relevant (if still in need of its own thread!) There are just going to be fewer and fewer Ryan Howards and Jimmy Rollins in the game, unless they are the children of other Black players (and we have one of those now. It's also probably safe to say the team never has a Latin-American GM if he were not also an MLB and Phillies legacy).

[Mac]

What a ridiculous way to think.

You'd never make that sort of statement about an NBA team.

[Aquapong]

I fail to see why it’s a “problem” that the starters are all white. It’s factual, but diversity for the sake of diversity shouldn’t factor in to baseball operations moves. They signed the guys the wanted or could at the time they signed them. We’ve reached a point where the starters are all white. Sosa may yet find himself playing significant time imo.

From a league standpoint, maybe they need more outreach activities to black communities. But for the team, the first priority is putting the best team available on the field from the players available.

[phillychuck]

Let's trade Castellanos for Byron Buxton. Solves the problem. Make it so, DD!

[zambonir]

I would

The Dallas Mavericks are consistently white in a black league. Why?

[Mac]

I can't say I'm surprised that people in the media are asking stupid questions.

Those who can, do.

Those who can't write about it in the papers.

[Mac]

I do think we are often a little too quick to trade non-white minor leaguers. We often criticize some prospects (JP Crawford) more than others with coded words about effort and personality. This justifies trading them sometimes. It is almost certainly an unconscious bias when they start justifying how a player will fit (or not) into the clubhouse.

Who is 'we'? For goodness sake, Dominican players are the greatest in the world when taking total population against # of big league players.

How many "coded terms" were used to describe Harper's 'selfishness' and 'lack of leadership skills' during his time in D.C.?

Somebody end the madness.

[andyb]

"We" is the Phillies. And there is a significant history of talking down African American and Latino prospects within our organization. Crawford had some injury issues, but when healthy he was behind Kingery when playing time at SS was available. There had also been several years of whispers about his effort and his celebrity or hotdogging within the clubhouse. This was real. It happened.

Sometimes the media is as much the culprit here too. It took Jimmy Rollins awhile to be accepted. Certainly longer than Chase.

This does not mean there are not levels of coded terms applied to every hot prospect, especially the ones like Harper who make lots of money at a young age. It is just worse with non-white prospects and to deny that is just somewhat ignorant. Remember all those whispers about Bobby Abreu not hustling when he would not crash into walls in the outfield? I kind of like that he played 150+ games THIRTEEN YEARS IN A ROW. The criticism was much harsher because he was not white. The gushing for Aaron Rowand (some of it well deserved) was probably greater because he was white.

[Mac]

At what point does it become the flawed perception of those perpetually trying to "decode" language?

I don't doubt the whispers about Crawford within the organization that you're referencing - but why is that a statement on his race instead of his character?

Chase being accepted quicker than Jimmy had everything to do with his contrasting style of play fitting the city like a glove and the immediate and meteoric success he tasted in MLB. Is Jalen Hurts having a harder time being accepted relative to what Carson Wentz experienced in his time here? Were the questions about Carson's leadership "coded language" - or was it just calling a spade a spade?

I am well aware of baseball's sordid history with race in the game, but when do people start asking whether they're looking for ghosts that are no longer there?

[andyb]

"Fitting the city like a glove". That sentence makes my point. Biases can be unconscious and subtle but also very real. Please don't try to make this some sort of Fox News reverse racism thing. Nobody is trying to "decode" language or even sure of what you mean. It may very well be coincidental all the choices this organization has made (Kingery over Crawford, Harper over Machado, Turner over Correa, Marsh over other CF options, including Latin American prospects in trades more often), but it is not out of line to think that unconscious biases probably played a small role.

At no point have I said the city and organization won't embrace black players. It is just harder for both to do so. There is lots of history on this from being the last organization to integrate to lots of our Latino prospects being flagged for "disciplinary" issues 10+ years ago.

We have made strides but the biases are likely still there.

[Mac]

Your response helps make the point I was trying to get across.

"Fitting the city like a glove" has everything to do with his style of play and nothing to do with the color of his skin. But for those trying to look for "decodes" in language that don't exist, they will surely find some.

How many times did J-Roll not run out a ground ball? Enough to where Charlie actually took action once because of it. How many times was Chase benched for lack of effort?

J-Roll was one of the greatest players this franchise has ever had and I love him dearly - but let's not pretend there weren't differences in play style that resonated with Philadelphia's fan base.

Chase's 100% effort, all the time style of play fit the blue-collar nature of this city perfectly. Not to mention the guy exploded on the scene immediately upon call up (a grand slam in his first at bat!).

I even tossed in the Carson / Jalen thing to be crystal clear about the framing and further the point that these matters are mainly based on performance and character, yet you use my line of reasoning to invoke "Fox News" - give me a break!

I can't speak to the disciplinary issues you're referencing, I don't know anything about them, but it seems sincerely unfair to heavily imply those disciplinary actions were based purely on race as opposed to character without providing any direct evidence. Maybe you are right - but I seem to remember Odubel Herrera getting chance after chance within this organization, so surely these Phillies don't have to pay for the sins of their fathers?

Do we really think that Turner's skin color was a factor here as opposed to his relationships within the organization and his prodigious production? To even suggest that is exactly what I meant by looking for ghosts that don't exist. Once you start looking at the world this way, it becomes a snake eating its tail.

Hey, perhaps they wanted Marsh because they desired to re-connect with their woodsy, rural fan demographic as opposed to finding a good defensive CF-er who was under team control and could be acquired for an acceptable price!

Or maybe.....just MAYBE...the Phillies are making merit based decisions reflective of production and character.

I mean, goodness gracious, we just signed one of the best players in the world - to field, potentially, the best lineup this team has ever had - and you have people here complaining about the "problematic" complexion of the team's roster in a merit-based endeavor like they're trying to cast a RomCom.

Yes, I'd say there is some unconscious bias at work here - although I'm not sure it's in the direction you're suggesting.

[Philsmania]

"We" is the Phillies. And there is a significant history of talking down African American and Latino prospects within our organization. Crawford had some injury issues, but when healthy he was behind Kingery when playing time at SS was available. There had also been several years of whispers about his effort and his celebrity or hotdogging within the clubhouse. This was real. It happened.

Sometimes the media is as much the culprit here too. It took Jimmy Rollins awhile to be accepted. Certainly longer than Chase.

This does not mean there are not levels of coded terms applied to every hot prospect, especially the ones like Harper who make lots of money at a young age. It is just worse with non-white prospects and to deny that is just somewhat ignorant. Remember all those whispers about Bobby Abreu not hustling when he would not crash into walls in the outfield? I kind of like that he played 150+ games THIRTEEN YEARS IN A ROW. The criticism was much harsher because he was not white. The gushing for Aaron Rowand (some of it well deserved) was probably greater because he was white.

And, as I have said before, back in 2008, I was a part of phan group where many during the early months of the season clamored for Chris Coste to start at catcher ahead of Carlos Ruiz.

[andyb]

But you tossed in a bunch of isolated examples that really mean nothing.

"Fits the city like a glove", The image of the gritty white player has always played well against the (often false) image of the sullen black player. Dick Allen? The stuff that was said about Kingery versus Crawford. The popularity of players like Dykstra compared to Abreu among the average fan.

You are just saying racism does not exist. It does. Race has played large perceptions in how popular various players are. You also try to get me to say that race is the reason why the Phillies make individual moves like Turner and Marsh and Harper. I am sure they don't consciously take it into account, but I am betting they were thinking Philly fans would take to Harper (14.8 WAR the past 4 years) more than Machado (17.6 WAR the past 4 years) if they were going to hand out a $300 million deal.

As for Turner - yes I believe the team thought he would be a good fit in the clubhouse and popular with the fans compared to Correa. There are many reasons for this and I am sure the team did not consciously use race as part of their decision making. That does not mean it was not part of the reason.

Rollins had a couple of isolated incidents of not running out ground balls in his career. A huge deal was made of it. The reason to like Chase was not his gritty style of play. It was that he was good at everything. Rollins was also very good at lots of things. And 30 SBs and 20-30 HRs should have made him equally popular. He never got as much credit for being a smart ballplayer and he was one of the smartest fielding shortstops I have ever seen. There was always way too much of the perception that he got there on talent and Chase got their on effort and smarts. If some Philly fans had that impression, THAT MAKES MY POINT YET AGAIN.

I will also predict that it will probably be more difficult for Hurts to get a top end QB deal than it was for Wentz. Quarterbacks are so scarce they will probably do the right thing in the end, but it probably won't be easy. Geno Smith would probably tell you about the lack of chances he has received in his career compared to white QBs with less talent.

[Austinfan]

You're stretching here.
No player fit this city more than Brian Dawkins.
Schmidt took a lot of grief because he wasn't a fiery player.
People loved AI b/c he played "balls to the wall" but "practice", that didn't fly.
McNabb got ■■■■ not b/c he was black, but because he chased dog toys instead of working on his mechanics.
Hurts is going to walk on water in this city, same with Maxey, because they're competitors with off the chart work ethics.

Yes, back 50 years ago this was a racist sports town, but that changed a long time ago, Erving, Moses, they could do no wrong. Maddox, Reggie and so on.

But Philly is a tough place whatever your color, the fans know their stuff for the most part and do not tolerate players who go half speed, or don't work in the offseason - but as Bohm found out, be honest, contrite and work hard for redemption and all will be forgiven.

[Mac]

You are just saying racism does not exist.

Boy, first Fox News, now this! Some serious decoding going on in this thread.

So because I....

1 - Think production and character were the largest contributing factors to Phillies roster building decisions

2 - Don't think race was the primary reason for the fan base's sentiments towards Rollins / Utley

3 - Don't think Phillies management of today should be judged through the lens you view their predecessors...

.....I'm "just saying" racism does not exist?

Sheesh, if you weren't putting words in other people's mouths, what would you have to say!

Here's what I am saying - today, the Phillies organizational decision making is primarily based on production, character and relationships - and it's a real shame that when we sign one of the best players in the world and are set to field one of our best teams ever that you have fans opining the racial makeup of the team and using that to project undeserved platitudes on the organization.

I do not believe that race is a contributing factor - although I obviously acknowledge that it was in the past, as it was for many other sports organizations as well.

But you tossed in a bunch of isolated examples that really mean nothing.

As if casually referencing minor league discipline for latino players as de facto proof of organizational racism actually means something?

I'm fairly certain Odubel, Jalen Hurts and Carson Wentz - and their various situations - all touch upon aspects of this conversation and argue against some of the things you're saying about Philadephia fans and Phillies management.

I am sure they don't consciously take it into account, but I am betting they were thinking Philly fans would take to Harper (14.8 WAR the past 4 years) more than Machado (17.6 WAR the past 4 years) if they were going to hand out a $300 million deal.

From everything I have read and heard on the topic from people (allegedly) in the know, the Phillies organizational preference was originally Machado because he played a premium defensive position - obviously, Harper ended up as a Phillie instead. Your bet probably wouldn't have paid out.

.....And in hindsight, the Phillies are better for it because Harper is a better fit for the city - and it has everything to do with his personality and what he's accomplished here (on the field and off of it with recruiting) and nothing to do with the color of his skin.

The popularity of players like Dykstra compared to Abreu among the average fan.

I wonder if Bobby Abreu being the "star" player on teams that exclusively lost year after year had anything to do with fan favoritism. Abreu was a really good player - but you play to win the game. He was the poster boy for a losing organization.

If Abreu hit .300 on the '93 Phils while regularly churning out quotes that served as chum for fans, I think it might be a different story.

I mean, nobody in this town thinks that fondly of Chooch, right?

The reason to like Chase was not his gritty style of play.

You can think whatever you'd like (and I don't disagree) - but still it doesn't change the fact that people did like and identify with Chase because of that. A lot of people - it was the most apparent part of his game to casual observers (and even gained him a cult following in LA too).

I will also predict that it will probably be more difficult for Hurts to get a top end QB deal than it was for Wentz.

This is what I mean when I say chasing ghosts that aren't there.

I can't even understand this line of thinking in a world where certified creep DeShaun Watson just signed a fully-guaranteed $250M deal. It's not as if the Eagles didn't pay McNabb top dollar when his turn was up, either.

This is going to go the way of your Harper / Machado bet.

The Eagles will do the exact same thing they did with Wentz - try to lock up a franchise QB on as team friendly of a deal as possible. In fact, when the Eagles signed Wentz, it was heralded amongst "NFL Insiders" as being a brilliant deal - locking up a 'franchise QB' talent on a relatively team-friendly deal.

[Mac]

but as Bohm found out, be honest, contrite and work hard for redemption and all will be forgiven.

The fans mistakenly thought he was a Latin player....after they realized he was a white guy, they started pulling for him.