Racial composition of the 2023 Phils (split--posts not in order)

[andyb]

You have completely twisted what I have said. Again, not even sure what you mean by decoding, but you must realize you are using the language of Fox News that tries to generate controversy and new victims with its own selective language.

Here is my general point without all the cherry-picked examples of your replies.

A. Somebody noted that the Phillies lineup was virtually all white.
B. It was also noted that there is a significant history of racism in the Phillies organization and all that history is not ancient (mainly in the treatment of Latin American players).
C. I said explicitly that the Phillies were not consciously using race in their individual transactions, but also allowed the possibility that unconscious racism of getting players to "fit the city" might have been a small factor.

This of course leads to your posts which imply that I am saying the Phillies and all their fans (us!!!!) are all racist. You know that is not what I said or even implied.

Having an adult conversation over racism is just way too hard. Racism exists. Biases exist. We all need to learn from the past and understand those biases. Cherry-picked examples (which ignore the overall statistics) just are not that useful. Your posts are the equivalent of Stephen Colbert mocking people who say they have a Black friend. Unconscious biases can affect results even if there was zero racist intent from the protagonist. Since you seem to deny the possibility of that sophisticated outcome, it is just difficult to continue this conversation.

[Mac]

You repeatedly and generally invoke nonsense like "language of Fox News" without citing any specific language while accusing me of claiming "racism doesn't exist" - and I'm the one twisting words and missing the point?

Boy, that's so rich I think I just got a cavity!

I literally took your own words and responded to them, point by point, and you pivot back to this word soup instead of engaging on specific discussion items that you brought up - AKA "cherry picked examples".

I'm clearly not the only one who sees it - Austinfan called you out for stretching reality to fit your perspective too.

But to keep things consistent, I'll engage on merit with what you've said:

A. Somebody noted that the Phillies lineup was virtually all white.

Yeah.....not quite - we're already off to a banger of a start. It was certainly a bit different than "Gosh, the Phillies have an all-white lineup. Anyways - I'm psyched for the season!"

The entire reason I posted was because this was NOT the case. Simply acknowledging an obvious physical reality is not exactly interesting or noteworthy.

B. It was also noted that there is a significant history of racism in the Phillies organization and all that history is not ancient (mainly in the treatment of Latin American players).

There's no denying that, but it also isn't what I took issue with - moreso you stating your subjective opinions as facts, like:

The criticism was much harsher because he was not white.

and

Crawford had some injury issues, but when healthy he was behind Kingery when playing time at SS was available. There had also been several years of whispers about his effort and his celebrity or hotdogging within the clubhouse.

Abreu WAS criticized harshly. Crawford WAS behind Kingery. Nobody is debating that.

But it's reductive and insulting to just paint those scenarios with the brush of casual racism or unconscious bias when there are other, legitimate reasons that could also explain them - especially when the only supporting argument seems to be "these things happened in the past".

This of course leads to your posts which imply that I am saying the Phillies and all their fans (us!!!!) are all racist.

No, not racist (remember, I don't believe it exists) - but I do think your arguments are misguided and that you're displaying the same unconscious bias (or perhaps it is conscious) you accuse present Phillies management of possibly harboring.

Take your implication that the Phillies were unfairly discriminating against latin players with a separate system of discipline - is there anything material to suggest that behavior was race-based as opposed to just managing the behavior of individuals on a case by case basis?

That sort of implication - short of actual evidence - could reflect that. Like I said, I'm not familiar with these claims, so you could be entirely correct in your implication....but it could be an unfair criticism as well.

C. I said explicitly that the Phillies were not consciously using race in their individual transactions, but also allowed the possibility that unconscious racism of getting players to "fit the city" might have been a small factor.

And I don't think racial bias has anything to do with the Phillies roster building moves.

For goodness sake, how does one even prove "unconscious racism"! This is what I mean by a snake eating it's tail - constantly looking out for a boogieman that you can't prove is in the room to begin with and we are seeing it at work in this thread.

Posters here are focusing on the "problematic" racial makeup of the team - one even found themselves hoping for the team to sign inferior players just to increase diversity. Pure insanity, but you're not seeing that.

I entirely agree with Julio when he said this:

I have to observe that the fundamental problem here is less what the Phillies may be doing than the fact that too many of us look at a player (or any other person) and see race. We don't see a person; we see a black person, or a white person, or a hispanic person, or an asian person, etc. We profess to want to end racism... but we're contributing to it, because we continue to categorize people by their appearance.

Nailed it.

What do fans and management like? Winning, character & effort. If you check those boxes, Philadelphia fans will adore you regardless of skin color.

This is why I referenced Chooch and Jalen Hurts....although those are just a convenient "cherry picked examples", whereas you seemingly think citing Kingery, Crawford and Abreu fit into a different category, for some reason.

[andyb]

Abreu WAS criticized harshly. Crawford WAS behind Kingery.

And that is the problem. Abreu was never anything other than a good player. And Crawford was always a far superior defensive shortstop than Kingery. Remember they were playing both of them at the same time with Crawford sometimes at 3B.

Your whole post basically denies racism exists. Read it. Julio's post is not wrong, but it also skirts beyond the existence of unconscious biases. This can be as simple as white players are more consistently thought to "fit the city" than black players. Roman Quinn is a disappointment while Alec Bohm tries hard. Juan Samuel tried as hard as any player I have ever seen in this city but constantly got criticized for things he was not good at.

As I said before, the team can have zero racist intent, but still get led to a certain outcome because of unconscious biases. You deny the existence of such biases or just say it is impossible that the sainted Phillies can be subject to them just like anyone else. You reference cherry-picked players like Chooch and Jalen Hurts. I also referenced a few players but also provided very specific comparisons about them being criticized against inferior players. Apples and oranges.

Do some research. There are ways to prove unconscious racism (studies on twins in different environments for instance). It is hard to do in the small sample size world of pro sports. Why do black football coaches with better records on average get fired more quickly than white football coaches? (read some of this series: https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/interactive/2022/nfl-black-head-coaches/)

Conscious and unconscious bias are very different things. I suspect you would have some difficulty providing evidence that unconscious biases do not exist.

[Mac]

And that is the problem. Abreu was never anything other than a good player. And Crawford was always a far superior defensive shortstop than Kingery. Remember they were playing both of them at the same time with Crawford sometimes at 3B.

Again, you are leaving out perfectly legitimate reasons that explain why those things occurred in favor of painting it with the all encompassing brush of casual racism.

You know who else was harshly criticized in this city for years? Pat Burrell. When did it stop? When his teams started to win. But I guess this is another cherry picked example.

I also referenced a few players but also provided very specific comparisons about them being criticized against inferior players

During the time period you are referencing, Scott Kingery was thought to have a bat that played well above Crawford. Crawford was also simultaneously plagued with injury issues during his time with the Phillies.

For crying out loud, Crawford was a first round pick - you think that the Phillies are simply burying first round picks because they unconsciously prefer the white guy? Give me a break.

Perhaps it's SLIGHTLY more likely that this was driven by poor player evaluation - something the Phillies are notorious for - as opposed to racist biases?

Your whole post basically denies racism exists.

Yeah.....no. I just think your view that unconscious racism is hiding around every corner isn reductive and insulting.

Alec Bohm was getting killed on WIP on a regular basis until his play improved. I recall conversations on air where they suggested he should be traded "for anything", because his value was nonexistent and he was hurting the team. Shockingly, when his play improved, the criticism disappeared and his perceived value increased. It had nothing to do with race.

There are ways to prove unconscious racism. It is hard to do in the small sample size world of pro sports.

Apparently not - we are finding "examples" of it all over this thread.

I suspect you would have some difficulty providing evidence that unconscious biases do not exist.

I am not suggesting unconscious bias doesn't exist - just that it has no impact on Phillies roster building in an athletic meritocracy where winning and performance are the determining factors.

[Aquapong]

Andy, the onus is the person making the accusation to prove that unconscious bias exists, not for someone else to prove it doesn’t.

[andyb]

I am not suggesting unconscious bias doesn't exist - just that it has no impact on Phillies roster building in an athletic meritocracy where winning and performance are the determining factors.

The problem is you ARE suggesting it does not exist on anything you care about. You deny the possibility that any unconscious bias has played a role in team construction without any evidence.

Do a little reading. Google some articles. You might learn something.

Meet the psychologist exploring unconscious bias—and its tragic consequences for...

The language of racism and unconscious bias in football

How racial bias can seep into baseball scouting reports - The Boston Globe

The Issue of Unconscious Bias in Referee Decisions in the National Rugby League

[andyb]

During the time period you are referencing, Scott Kingery was thought to have a bat that played well above Crawford. Crawford was also simultaneously plagued with injury issues during his time with the Phillies.

Thinking that Kingery had a better bat than Crawford is part of the problem. He had one half season repeating AA at age 23 that was great. Crawford had made AAA at age 22 and had always been better at age versus level performance. And Kingery was elevated over Crawford in his rookie year when he had a 600 OPS and Crawford's limited major league performance was better.

Nobody disputes the injuries, but they played Kingery at SS and Crawford at 3B when both were healthy. Then traded Crawford for less than they should have while elevating Kingery into positions (SS) that he was not suited for.

Hard to prove bias of course, but it kind of screams at you in this example.

[Austinfan]

Or just incompetence. Or wishful thinking.

Kingery had a lot of promise before they screwed him up, and they liked the potential for him to be a "super-sub" that was a Dodger staple. He had power, speed, potentially was a plus fielder at multiple positions.

Crawford had struggled, and started to look like a good field, no hit type, i.e. Sosa.
Nor were they that far off, Crawford didn't become a full-time starter until he was 26, last two seasons combined he's put up a total of 5.3 WAR, ok, but not special. He never develop any power, and is a decent, but not great, contact hitter.

To put this in perspective, Sosa in 516 PA the last two seasons has put up 3.0 WAR.

And sometimes there are character issues, Rollins was a bit of a prima donna, after 2008 his best OPB was .338. Yet when they tried to move him down in the batting order he resisted. Somehow a player with his speed managed to put up bad BABIP year after year - one year is a fluke, six years between .251 and .288 is a bad approach to hitting.

Howard was the same, after he was injured, he remained a dead pull hitter who resisted adjusting his approach to use the whole field. We see the same with Hoskins, who is successful when he trusts his power to all fields, but consistently falls back into pull heavy habits.

Assuming it's a matter of race ignores the many black athletes who are receptive to coaching, sometimes its just the individual, players who have a lot of success early often resist making adjustments, preferring to "recapture the magic" by sticking with what brung 'em.

Even with Abreu, I think this also reflected the backward approach of the Phillies organization which didn't understand the value of OBP and underrated Abreu's hitting value - no one asked Luzinski to run into fences. Or Matthews for that matter.

[zambonir]

I would still urge the mods to split off this topic, even if it can't be done completely! (And/or lock this thread in the sense that the actual news of Turner being signed is over and broader discussions can continue in the general thread).

I always found the Crawford thing a bit mysterious. For sure the context and possible bias still matters but the new front office just never seemed that high on him. They were overly deferential to Galvis even as they planned to trade him, but they also seemed to be preparing to make Crawford a 3B either way (ahead of Franco, and to make room for Machado). I don't think anybody ever wanted Kingery to play SS; they would have happily left Pedro Florimon had he not also gotten hurt. The injuries were still the real issue for JP; beyond that you can just as easily criticize the Phillies for thinking the Segura trade/Santana salary shed was worth such a good player as you can say the trade shows they'd given up on him too soon (and of course the trade was even worse once Segura turned out to not be a SS, though hey at least they had an opening at 2B by then!)

[zambonir]

with new addition Taijuan Walker adding an African-American presence.

Indeed, after last year's Opening Day roster being completely free of Black players from the United States (for the first time since the team first integrated I believe), that is notable. He happens to be of Mexican descent as well.

[julio]

While I sympathize with the concerns being expressed here, I have to observe that the fundamental problem here is less what the Phillies may be doing than the fact that too many of us look at a player (or any other person) and see race. We don't see a person; we see a black person, or a white person, or a hispanic person, or an asian person, etc.

We profess to want to end racism... but we're contributing to it, because we continue to categorize people by their appearance.

[allentown]

Well, yes, that's the definition of racism but it is hard to deny that the Phillies organization and its fan looked at players of color and if they had any personality deviation at all from White player culture decided they were trash. It's a long and sordid history and it is not a history we are imagining. Asking us to ignore the Phillies consistently being Whiter than most organizations does not erase that fact.

[zambonir]

And I sympathize with where you are coming from, but the "let's stop seeing race" argument is actually more common from the other side and IMO is more likely to passively uphold white supremacy than help defeat it (it was also literally Stephen Colbert's parody of racism 20 years ago).

[julio]

Yeah. I don't know that we can overcome our tendency (instinct?) to categorize people we encounter by whatever we first see. We can (and must) overcome any tendency to treat people differently based on those upfront categorizations.

[flyers19rw]

It’s not 1948 and Chapman is not the manager or Carpenter the owner. The Phillies phans, like most of society, since then have changed. Guys like Maddox, Rollins, Howard, and others have turned the page. Sure a person could see racism here if they wanted to do that but they’d want to do that.

[German41]

I just want a good team. Could care less about race or color.

[phillychuck]

The only concern I have about race is that our LA program is so inept at signing and/or developing position players that we have not been able to bring our own home-grown players to the majors, so we are forced to sign free agents and spend a lot of Middleton's money (and cripple ourselves going forward due to taxes). In large part our starting "9" is white because we stink at developing LA position players. Ineptitude is a more likely explanation at this juncture than racism.

[Austinfan]

Exactly. I mean if our OF was De La Cruz, Rojas and Ortiz . . . with Garcia at SS (though we did acquire Sosa).

[LoneStarPhan]

In the more recent past, the Phillies have given free agency contracts and starting jobs to McCutchen, Santana, and Gregorius, and traded for Segura, a starter over the past four years. I think the current lack of diversity in the starting lineup is not the result of any lingering racism on the part of the Phillies. I do not believe that there was any racism behind the roster moves that have led to the current roster. The pitching staff and bench will provide diversity to the team overall, and quite likely in a few years, the starting lineup will again be more diverse.

[zambonir]

No, it's not deliberate, but historical, structural and cultural racism are not the same things as bias. The fact that the Phillies had an all-white roster last Opening Day was just a weird, but still meaningful fact, and the product of 50 different things.

It's also true that there have been times when being a less enlightened organization meant missing out on talent. I don't think that's the case with the Phillies either, and say what you will about their developmental success, they obviously embraced Latin players (and have had a Latin-American assistant general manager or GM almost uninterrupted since Amaro first stepped in - with Velandia being the current one).