Phils & Covid

[zambonir]

Yeah and while I don't think this was Dirk's intent, the co-optation of a reproductive freedom slogan by anti-vaxxers is (to me) offensive, and of course, very deliberate. And yet: also a very poor analogy, if you're trying to argue the government shouldn't be able to regulate any medical decisions!

[EDmuch]

Well said Julio

[Dirk41]

I totally agree, Julio.

[Dirk41]

It's maddening, to be honest.

[jimbomill]

There is lots of experience though with vaccines. They have already been through extensive safety testing. We also know the long term (and short term) effects of COVID

I agree with most of what you said. I do not think there's much empirical data on long-term effects of COVID, nor of the vaccine, too.

[jimbomill]

As I, you.

[andyb]

I agree with most of what you said. I do not think there's much empirical data on long-term effects of COVID, nor of the vaccine, too.

But just because there is not much data with this vaccine and virus does not mean we put our head in the sands and do nothing. There are many similar vaccines so we know LOTS of things about vaccine safety. There are many similar coronaviruses out there. So we know things about these types of viruses. The exact way to handle things will certainly change as we learn more about the virus, but that does not mean that basic things we know are not true.

Vaccines are generally safe. Side effects exist but are many magnitudes less serious than the virus itself. We know COVID kills also. These are basic health facts that are being ignored.

Your above statement is just dangerous misinformation. You might as well say "I recommend killing another 300,000 Americans because freedom is more important than taking a perfectly safe vaccine". There is lots of evidence that vaccines are safe including safety testing and hundreds of millions of doses of these vaccines. There is zero evidence that it is more dangerous than COVID.

[jimbomill]

But just because there is not much data with this vaccine and virus does not mean we put our head in the sands and do nothing.

At no time did I suggest an ostrich approach. It has been my experience when most any technical endeavor undergoes a shorter development life cycle, leakage occurs. Errors that would have been discovered and addressed with the normal time in iterative test and development tend to leak through.

[julio]

But just because there is not much data with this vaccine and virus does not mean we put our head in the sands and do nothing.

At no time did I suggest an ostrich approach. It has been my experience when most any technical endeavor undergoes a shorter development life cycle, leakage occurs. Errors that would have been discovered and addressed with the normal time in iterative test and development tend to leak through.

This reads an awful lot like just rationalizing not doing what you know is necessary, what you know is the right thing to do.

Is nearly universal vaccination absolutely guaranteed to have no long-term side effects, to injure nobody, to be perfect? No. Of course not. But on what planet does anything rise to that level of certainty?

Nearly universal vaccination is necessary, to get this disease under control. But yes, it is a "choice." It's a binary choice - either we do it, or we fail. Obfuscating just brings on failure.

[flyers19rw]

No vaccination; no insurance coverage with Covid related issues.

[LoneStarPhan]

We had the ability to pretty much wipe this COVID out, but because of the decisions of a significant part of our population to not participate, we now face more sickness, more deaths, and likely more disruption of our economy and our normal life style.

Seems pretty short sighted on the part of so many people. Considering the severity of the possible consequences of their action, I am probably not nearly mad enough at those who have made the decision to undermine this effort.

[allentown]

as there simply is no data on long term effects.

Serious question: but when is there ever data on long-term effects for a vaccine?
The flu vaccine changes every year.
I was in the age range which had the initial mass vaccination for polio. No data on long-range effects, but we knew the effects of polio and our parents were eager to get us vaccinated. Even today, it would be very hard to determine the effectts of that vaccine long-term, simply because almost everyone got it and just so many confounding factors over a life-time.

Yes, it is true that the Covid vaccines have only emergency, rather than full approval. I see it as directly analogous to polio vaccinations -- protection against severe harm. Over 600,000 Americans dead of Covid is an emergency, and with the delta version, it isn't over.

[allentown]

There is lots of experience though with vaccines.

True for the Covid vaccines which are traditional vaccines, like the J&J and I think the AstraZeneca. The Pfizer and Moderna are a whole new type of vaccine -- I believe they are the first significant messenger-RNA-type vaccines in general use.

[allentown]

We had the ability to pretty much wipe this COVID out, but because of the decisions of a significant part of our population to not participate, we now face more sickness, more deaths, and likely more disruption of our economy and our normal life style.

We certainly could have mitigated the current and prior surges of Covid, but we certainly couldn't have wiped out Covid, even if every American was vaccinated. There is simply too much world travel and too many nations with low rates of vaccination for that to be possible any time year. Even if everybody willingly accepted the vaccine worldwide, it will be another year until we have significant vaccine to innoculate most of the world, so new variants would emerge and make their way to America, in any case. That puts most of us vaccinated individuals in a not all that different position than if the 30% holdouts in America end their holdout -- a variant that the vaccine doesn't protect against could still reach America and spread rapidly, even through a vaccinated populace.

[allentown]

There are many similar vaccines

Actually, there aren't many similar vaccines, unless you are comparing to just J&J in America.

[andyb]

While it is true that the RNA vaccines are a new approach, they also are a potentially safer approach because they don't inject inert or weak samples of the virus into people. The advantage of the RNA approach is more in the speed of development than the radical nature of what gets injected into people. Obviously there is no 10 0r 20 year track record on something new like this, but it is also true that similar raw ingredients have been injected in people for decades so the industry is not flying blind. Plus people do have a choice of Johnson and Johnson here. In other words, there is no excuse citing long term concerns.

I am more worried about profiteering from big Pharma. They really should be producing billions of doses at cost with only a tiny profit margin. I worry the third dose is not really needed (or won't be needed for more than a year) and is just another way for them to make money off a disease where most of their research was heavily subsidized in the first place.

[zambonir]

The SEC is taking a much more aggressive stance, which is interesting given many of these campuses are probably not mandating it overall, and of course the state's are likely low-vax too. Right now Sankey is saying that if you don't hit the threshold, you start forfeiting games. No, "fix it and make up the games later."

COVID forfeits on table for SEC as vax totals lag

Honestly I think the only reason baseball was able to be lax about this is because of the low-contact nature of the game itself.

[bkox]

51 percent of unvaccinated individuals think the COVID-19 vaccine contains a...

[julio]

51 percent of unvaccinated individuals think the COVID-19 vaccine contains a...

This requires utter ignorance about vaccines, and about microchips... and a willingness to believe absolute nonsense if it comes from a tribe member. It's not civil to refer to these people as idiots. It's accurate, but it's not civil.

[zambonir]

And they're all willingly carrying one over the skin anyway!