Phils & Covid

[zambonir]

We don't know, but judging from what's been reported, they aren't close enough, machinations or not. As Gelb wrote last week:

Team officials will not divulge how many players aren’t vaccinated. It is a meaningful number, to the point that months ago, the Phillies were certain they would never reach the 85 percent threshold.

Anyway, machinations aren't realistic anyway. What are you going to do, send Bohm down to AAA and lose him for another 10 days? Put Nola on the IL? Most players can't even be sent down.

Also, there's no way this requirement is static. If you are above 85% and then trade for or call up enough unvaccinated players to go under, you're back to the old rules. I'm sure that's actually been part of the problem for the Phillies this year, as many of the AAA players clearly aren't vaccinated either.

[zambonir]

But hes a selfish individual and a bad teammate.

See, that's the real problem. Apparentlly the clubhouse culture doesn't see it that way, and neither does the manager. Of course it would also be really bad for the team if the issue was divisive. But it doesn't appear to be. Seems possible more than 85% of the roster (I exaggerate for symbolic effect) buys into the "it's a personal choice" narrative and/or believes really bad information about the vaccine, even if they themselves have been vaccinated, or even had COVID.

[donaldorc]

We also know that the vaccinated rarely get serious symptoms even if they did get COVID.

A friend of mine who was vaccinated and pretty careful about wearing a mask, let her guard down attending a family reunion. She caught the delta variant but only experienced cold-like symptoms. However, she was remorse that she is a carrier and may have infected other people!

[andyb]

I go without a mask most of the times these days too and I'd feel guilty if I got infected and passed it on to someone else. Of course, if everyone was vaccinated then that person probably would not have bad symptoms. And it is 90% likely they would not get it anyway.

This is not about forcing virtuous behavior onto every situation. It is about everyone doing the one easy right thing (getting vaccinated) so the virus stops spreading. All these players not getting vaccinated are idiots and listening to either scare talk or false libertarian sentiments from people that either don't know what they are saying or do know and are just being malicious because they want to make a stupid political statement.

[jimbomill]

The science says

Interesting, are not the pharmaceutical companies given protection (PREP act) to get the vaccines out? In short, they have not been through the typical testing for a new drug, right? To me the science says something different and I see nothing wrong with folks waiting for more data/testing as there simply is no data on long term effects.

[bkox]

Hope you dont kill yourself or anyone you love

[andyb]

There is lots of experience though with vaccines. They have already been through extensive safety testing. We also know the long term (and short term) effects of COVID. While the efficacy of the vaccines might fade over time, there is very little chance of any serious negative effects. Waiting is 99.99999% more likely to result in more depths. Do you suggest a 10-year wait to see what's going on? Or 20? There are very good reasons that experts approve these vaccines. The bigger questions are always more about how well they will work (and their price) rather than if they are dangerous.

[EDmuch]

Pray tell what does "the science" say to you?

[zambonir]

Yeah, they whole, "these are only emergency-approved vaccines" seems like a red herring. To me that only highlights how important it is to get them because it's an emergency, not that you should wait six months or a year or two years for more data.

The whole thing is insiduous because it punishes the innocent. Wearing a mask protects others more than you, and being vaccinated protects others just as much as you. The only full protection from both individual exposure and spread/mutations in both cases is when everyone is doing it.

[julio]

Interesting, are not the pharmaceutical companies given protection (PREP act) to get the vaccines out? In short, they have not been through the typical testing for a new drug, right? To me the science says something different and I see nothing wrong with folks waiting for more data/testing as there simply is no data on long term effects.

How long do you prescribe waiting to see about "long term" effects? 20 years? How many people will die from this disease in the intervening years?

What kind of long-term effects - what kind of risk - warrants waiting to see, and watching literally millions of people die? Put another way, how many other peoples' lives are less valuable than your risk certainty?

This is why I argue that these "personal choices" are mostly just about selfishness. Person A isn't willing to take the risk - any risk - of a negative side effect, because to Person A, his/her comfort/security is just more important than any negative impacts his/her "choice" may have on other people - even if it's lots of other people. Even if it's millions of other people.

Now, if it's Person A's spouse...then Person A might reconsider. (I personally know of suh a case). But it's too late for Person A's spouse - he's dead. Person A has to live with that. It seems to me to make much more sense - even if you don't give a hoot about strangers, no matter how many - to do what you can, up front, to protect your loved ones.

What's most aggravating to me is that this kind of denial - err, personal choice - seems to correlate very highly with tribe, with political affiliation. This suggests to me that it's not about anything rational, it's group loyalty. Game-playing, with one's own and other peoples' lives, for the sake of being "in the group," for the sake of opposing what the other group wants or thinks.

I'm left just shaking my head...

[EDmuch]

CD, the first thing I would do with Kinsler and Joyce is suspend them indefinitely without pay due to conduct that i s detrimental to the team. Nobody give a good darn about their "beliefs" This is a matter of science. And if their ignorant commentary in any way impacted the views of others in the clubhouse, they are suspended without pay until they publicly apologize to their teammates for their anti-social commentary. Now if they produce a sworn affidavit from one licensed medical professional stating that to a reasonable medical certainty that profession has determined that the vaccine contributed to their injuries, fine I will reinstate them But otherwise, their ignorant, unprofessional commentary is part of the problem both inside the team and in our society as a whole. And I also think that Judge is a jerk too. Frankly I am disgusted with our society that exalts ignorant opinions and creates shrines to stupidity. I can root for the Phils to win a game Nola pitches without rooting for him to get 10 strike outs.

In addition, I would have the franchise attorneys go back and review each players contract to see if there is some kind of language that required a player to minimize physical risks of injury as part of their contracts. I would take the position that failure to obtain a vaccine is a breach of contract.

[bkox]

The Union would block every bit of this.

[LoneStarPhan]

I am sure the Players' Association would defend player choice. That does not change my opinion that not getting the vaccine is purely selfish (in most cases, there may be valid reasons to not get it on an individual basis) and hurts the team and MLB.

I urge the front office to not make any trades for players who have not been vaccinated. Of course, I'm not sure they can ask that but since vaccination status is something teams have to track, I would hope they could.

While I would not make it the overriding factor, I would use vaccination status as a factor in making player personnel decisions. Who to waive to clear a roster spot? If it is a close call, the unvaccinated goes first. Evaluating who to nontender next off season? Close call? Drop the player who wouldn't get the jab.

[EDmuch]

Yeah I am sure the Union would try to intervene.

[zambonir]

In addition, I would have the franchise attorneys go back and review each players contract to see if there is some kind of language that required a player to minimize physical risks of injury as part of their contracts. I would take the position that failure to obtain a vaccine is a breach of contract.

For sure this would not pass muster with the union or a mediator currently, but would be a pretty interesting thing to put in future CBAs or contracts. Players can already agree not to go skiing or play pick-up basketball or ride motorcycles or fly a plane (though obviously not all of them have); if I were the Phillies getting ready to sign another big free agent (or extend Nola) at a time when it seems certain we'll be living with COVID as endemic (and could also experience a new pandemic), I'd want that protection.

And the player could also walk away, of course, which would then turn the issue into something where the owners might align/collude, or certain teams might go against the grain.

[EDmuch]

Depending upon how the contract is worded, it might get by a mediator.

[zambonir]

A new contract, possibly. A current contract, unlikely. Especially as the players never seem to win anything in mediation.

[Dirk41]

Their body, their choice, but for a group of guys who are known to put a lot of questionable things into their bodies, their reluctance surrounding vaccination is almost comical.

[julio]

Their body, their choice,

But it's not that simple. When you're talking steroids, or hallucinogens, or euphorics, yeah, it's your body, your choice.

But when we're talking pandemics - highly infectious, highly communicable, deadly diseases, it's not as simple as "my body, my choice." You're playing with other peoples' lives, not just your own.

In the abstract, if I want to strap high explosives around my waist, go out into a field, and blow myself to kingdom come... that's my body, my choice. But if I want to do that in a crowded theater, or on an airliner, or in a subway car... that's something else entirely.

So, "my body, my choice," about vaccines in a pandemic, is not even just selfish, it's sociopathic, assuming that it's not due to sheer ignorance.

[bkox]

At least the people here and the Phillies are somewhat sane about it. There are facebook groups 1000s strong with people who belive that the vaccine is altering DNA, Also claiming that there are chips in making people who get the shots magnetic.

These people also try to not get near anyone who has got the vaccine, and blame any health problem on being near vaccinated people and then shedding this "technology" on to their bodies. They are refusing to let family members who vac in their house and one family threw out their 17yo daughter who got vaccinated against their will.