Phillies Spring Training Discussion 2024

[xogfog]

I think Hall could be traded, but the time to trade him was 2 years ago. I'm not thrilled with any of the 26th man candidates, but my guess is, you could say that about every team...

[LoneStarPhan]

The 4 man bench is the norm under the current roster limits. It is extremely difficult to structure the ideal composition for the bench. It always seems to me that at least one more slot is needed to provide a second catcher, infielder, outfielder, LH pinch hitter, RH pinch hitter, late fielding replacement for any starter who is a poor fielder, pinch runner for slow starter, etc. But every team is so challenged.

Merrifield and Sosa and the back up catcher seem to be locks, leaving only one slot to be filled. It seems to me that a LH hitting outfielder who is a good fielder and a good hitter with some power would be the best fit for the position. Each of the candidates presently lack some of the ideal mix, but going into spring training, I'd say Cave is the leading candidate.

[allentown]

Cave is the leading candidate.

I just don't see Cave. He plays only corner OF and 1B, so not effective positional flexibility. He is a slight negative on dWAR. I'm surprised he's only a slight negative on oWAR, since his OPS+ last season was only 69. He is a LHB. Even though he is a RHB, I'd take Pache over Cave. Cave declined last season, while Pache improved. Pache is a lot younger.

[BostonRoss]

The problem with Pache is that he's a zero offensively against RHP. Even in his "good" year in 2023, his OPS was .449; for his career it's .374. It's a small sample size (effectively one full season), but it's hard to imagine he can double is output to reach the low bar set by Cave offensively.

If Rojas is on the team, when would Pache play? We wouldn't pinch-hit for anyone unless Stubbs was up and Pache was the last guy on the bench. Merrifield would be the better option to pinch-hit and pinch-run in any situation. Pache is a much better defensive OF than Cave or Merrifield, but if you're concerned about positional flexibility, he offers nothing. Really, the only reason to have Pache on the roster is of Rojas or Marsh isn't.

I really hope they find someone better than Cave, but it isn't Pache on this roster.

[allentown]

Since Cave is younger, cheaper, and better than Cave, they ought to be able to trade him for an appropriate LHB.

[zambonir]

Well, the Phillies essentially ran a three-man bench (and a seven-man bullpen to boot) for all of August, so if they still value Pache it's theoretically possible to keep him. He'd be very lightly used. Maybe starts in LF against tough lefties when Merrifield also plays 2B. Defensive replacement for Merrifield when he starts in LF. He'd essentially be a Rule 5 player (due to his lack of options).

But, it would be best for Pache to go join a bad team or a team with less OF depth and get more playing time. It would also just be ideal if they can flip him for a similar player, but LH. Or flip Cave for a better bat even if he's a bad fielder.

I don't think Cave's lack of versatility is an issue though when they already have Sosa and Merrifield. Cave can also technically play CF (and so can Merrifield). If Darrick Hall could actually play passable LF I'd be more inclined to give him a shot, the fact that he is only 1B/DH when our starters are both LH is what hurt him there.

If you need more versatility than what Cave has you end up with Kody Clemens, because anyone who is that versatile and better than Cave or Clemens.... well, gets an $8 million free agent contract. Or more.

[Callison]

Cave knows he must hit his way back on to the Phils in ST.

The Phils' coaches must like him for all the PT and some clutch ABs he got last season.

On you, Jake.

[Austinfan]

Players tend to play themselves on or off the roster in ST.

We assume what we saw last year is the "norm," but we've seen players implode and come out of nowhere, a fix to swing mechanics, an off season with a different training regime, a new grip revives a below average pitch, etc.

Doesn't happen on a regular basis, but it does happen. And you only need a couple players to step up to fill out the end of the roster. It's not like you're hoping Cave can be a 125 wRC+ player, just something closer to 100 and average defense. Or may Pache surprises, or Kroon or Wilson show they can handle ML FBs.

[zambonir]

Cave stuck around last year because he was still no worse than the alternatives (Clemens, Muzziotti, Hall) and LHB wasn't a huge need (even though they also chose not to address the RHB need). Yeah, he came up zeroes in a couple of spots where you would have liked to have Matt Stairs but it's not what cost the Phillies the series. And there are not a ton of Matt Stairs types around (and we remember them not because they have to be actually good all season but because they only have to be good for a month or one game).

Right now Cave and Pache are assets the Phillies control, and cheaply. Ditto Covey. Eventually a few of them will either be going to another team or will get snuck through AAA.

Or there's always the fake injury option.

[Austinfan]

Last year was also tough b/c Harper was out but coming back, Hoskins was injured, so you have both financial limitations and you couldn't bring someone in for two months to start, then sit the rest of the year.

This spring should be easier, the starting spots are set, so your focus in on bench players.

[LoneStarPhan]

When I think of a veteran on the bench for pinch hitting, I am reminded of Dave Philley. Of course, in those days, the typical roster was ten pitchers and 15 position players. With no DH, the bench was 7 deep. Philley put up OPSs over .800 in his age 38 and 39 seasons (200 plus at bats each year) with the Phillies. He was a switch hitter as well, so ideal for a pinch hitter off the bench.

And I loved the name. A perfect fit.

[xogfog]

The trend of limiting starters to 100 pitchers and now using 3-5 relievers per game is all across the league, so all teams carry at least 13 pitchers. You should be able to have a bench consisting of a backup C, LH and RH hitting outfielders, two backup infielders and a speedy pinch runner. That would give you a 28 man roster, I think that active rosters need to be expanded to 28, or even 30. It would be better for the game.

[BostonRoss]

I am reminded of Dave Philley.

And I loved the name. A perfect fit.

The name thing happens more than I would have thought. Jose Cardenal was on the Cardinals, and Johnny Podres ended his career with the Padres. I hope we don’t trade Suarez to Texas…

[phillychuck]

The 26th man debate here is quite perceptive; if Dombrowski is paying attention, it looks like the best solution might be a trade for a LH 3B/OF who is available for for one or two of our borderline roster guys. Then the bench becomes:

Merrifield
Stubbs or Marchan
Sosa
LH 3B/OF

Which fits what they need better than Cave or Pasche in the last spot.

[andyb]

Cave is around because he raked in AAA last year and the Phillies probably think he can be a 750-800 OPS bat against right-handed pitching if he stops pressing. He was just better than everyone else they are considering in AAA. An 1100+ OPS in a large sample makes teams think that he can produce at the major league level. He was an 800 OPS outfielder his first 2 years in the majors so it is not like he has never done it there.

The possibility of that (for very little money) is enticing.

[zambonir]

Clearly with both Cave and Covey they also think it's possible they might slip through to AAA, though I'm not sure that's a long-term strategy of any real use if they did end up returning to the MLB roster (because then they'd have to clear waivers again if it wasn't permanent).

Whether it's Pache or Cave or someone else it's a player who would not get used very much. Like, how is Cave ever going to get a start against a RHP in LF over Marsh? Ditto at DH or 1B for Harper. In theory he can play LF when Rojas sits against the occasional RHP but Merrifield isn't only going to face LHP. His main appeal is that he can PH for any OF without requiring a defensive replacement.

I suspect if there was a five-man bench Thomson (and most managers) would still give that spot to Pache but then you could give Cave's spot to a less versatile or more defensively challenged player.

[andyb]

LH 3B/OF

That is sort of Clemens if they don't acquire anyone. Bohm got some positive glances here on his arbitration award (where the Phillies DID have a case on overall value because of the defense), but the reality is that he is barely replacement level (702 OPS last year) against right-handed pitching. I think the team still thinks Bohm can be much better and they would just love not to platoon for a couple of years there, but a 702 OPS with mediocre defense is something a low cost acquisition should be able to do.

Clemens was a 695 OPS against right-handed pitching without enough of a defensive sample to judge (but likely mediocre there like Bohm). So he does not offer improvement versus Bohm, but does that give him an advantage over Cave who is basically an OF only even though he stood at 1B for a few games?

[zambonir]

Finally, a new leadoff hitter!

Phillies lineup vs. TOR in Dunedin. 1:07p.m. ET on MLBN/94WIP.

Merrifield 4
Rojas 8
Sosa 6
Clemens 3
Wilson DH
Dahl 9
Kingery 7
Castro 5
Garcia 2

Allard LHP

— Todd Zolecki ( @ToddZolecki ) February 24, 2024

[zambonir]

The Phillies are obviously viewing Merrifield as a player who has not declined (and paying him as such). That being the case - correct or not - I imagine they expect him to play 3B against RHP a little bit, because nearly 75% of his career ABs have been against them (as with any everyday player) and his career OPS is higher than Bohm's (or Clemens. And the same as Cave's, when it comes to making the LF choice).

To me it's not that the Phillies didn't have a case against Bohm, it just wasn't worth fighting it. You can say the same about him, of course, and I suppose giving an inch now could mean giving several inches next year. Ironically they might have had a better case not on his defense but on his poor offense against the pitchers he has to face most often!

[andyb]

Merrifield has played 31 innings at 3B in his career and none since 2017. Sosa will be the backup 3B absent other moves or Clemens making the team. Merrifield is really not as flexible as advertised though playing LF and 2B does allow others like Stott and Marsh to move up the defensive spectrum as needed. Merrifield is likely an emergency option at 3B and nothing more.