Phillies Spring Training Discussion 2024

[VoteForKalas]

Apparently the Phillies' arbitration case against Bohm mostly focused on his poor defense, which is kind of funny given they publicly prefer to join fans in celebrating the eye test and Dickerson's coaching. But that's the business. Still kind of nuts that that they are prepared to pay some of the AAA salaries they are but tried to saved $600K on their starting 3B

The fact it even got to arbitration is a joke.

Bohm is the first legit 3B the Phillies have developed since Rolen and one of their few young promising players - what do they do? They try to nickel and dime him.

[zambonir]

Agreed. I assume it was company policy/file and trial etc. But if they were able to settle with Suarez and Soto for $5 million this shouldn't have been that hard despite Bohm being a first-year arbitration player. Not something either side tends to take personally in and of itself, but it's part of the bigger picture that led to the last labor dispute (and probably the next one too).

Still not sure he's that promising alas. One undercurrent to this is that he'd be easy to extend and the team probably doesn't have any interest. We'll see if he takes another step forward this season especially without the time at 1B but while he deserves every penny of that $4 million still doubt he'll be worth keeping by his final arbitration year (let alone beyond).

[zambonir]

Whit Merrifield is here. He will wear No. 9. RHP Kaleb Ort DFA’d to make room for him on the 40-man roster.

— Todd Zolecki ( @ToddZolecki ) February 19, 2024

[VoteForKalas]

One undercurrent to this is that he'd be easy to extend and the team probably doesn't have any interest.

I think that is the larger issue and why this got to arbitration instead of being settled earlier.

The Phils see him as a limited player and he & his camp obviously disagree.

Hopefully, if they let him go, it will not take us 25 years to draft & develop the next legit 3B.

[zambonir]

Well, hopefully the next 3B is Aidan Miller. But I don't really see it as a positional issue. It was okay for the team that had Utley and Rollins to not develop a 3B. It was also okay to never develop a CF (Rowand, Werth, Victorino, Herrera - not one homegrown among them) and now that finally might change.

It's just not okay to develop too few players, period.

I know I'm kind of a Bohm hater (not personally!) but I also think it remains to be seen whether he's a true success story. He's 26 years old, has played four seasons (one of them the shortened 2020) and has a 0.8 career WAR. At 26 Maikel Franco had five seasons (plus abbreviated call-up) and a 2.4 career WAR (not counting the -0.4 in that brief rookie stint). Both players had their career best OPS+ in their rookie years. Bohm is not moving in the wrong direction as clearly as Franco was by then but six years as a starting 3B in MLB (including his one year with KC) is not a failure either.

[bkox]

I know its not very relevant but not many teams can say they developed 2 HOF 3rd basemen in the last 50 years.

[allentown]

It was okay for the team that had Utley and Rollins to not develop a 3B. It was also okay to never develop a CF (Rowand, Werth, Victorino, Herrera - not one homegrown among them) and now that finally might change.

No, it really wasn't ok. It especially wasn't ok given all the resources they've put into trying to develop a CF. It has been a huge organizational weakness, literally over generations of professional baseball-side management and staff. Hopefully they now have their current home-grown CF, who will be their next impactful home-grown CF? Who was the last guy to meet that description? Hisle put up some big offensive years, for the Twins rather than for us, and wasn't a good defensive CF. Briggs had 25 career rWAR but not based on OF D and most of that was for MIL after he left CF.

[julio]

Whitey?

[bkox]

Some teams just are better at some positions than others in development. Before Realmuto.. I challenge you to find a run like the phillies had at catcher.. From Boone to Daulton to Lieby to Chooch.. from like 1973 to 2016, there were only 5 or 6 seasons where the majority of starts at catcher werent from a home grown player. (Diaz, Parrish, Santiago). There were a few home growns in there besides those 4 too. Russell, Virgil, Rupp.

[zambonir]

I just think it's pretty random as far as positions. Especially when you also trade guys. Would it have been nice if the Phillies had developed a CF or two over the last 25 years? Of course. But there's probably other teams who developed one or two CFs that didn't develop a single 1B as good as Howard or Hoskins, or nearly a half-dozen middle IFs, in that time.

Obviously the system has underachieved en masse. And the biggest hole has been - and remains - corner OFs.

And there's also no shame in finding a Herrera or Vic or Werth or Abreu or Marsh. Still more impressive than just signing a Castellanos.

And that's also why some don't want to give up on Pache so fast.

[BostonRoss]

I don't want to give up on Pache, but there is no place for him on this team unless something happens to Rojas (or maybe Marsh). Remember, this is a guy with a career .128/.185/.189 slash line against RHP. It's only 264 PA, and he's young, but he is unlikely to contribute much as long as Rojas is doing OK. Too bad Pache is out of options.

[allentown]

As in international commerce, specializing in developing players for some positions and not others could be a competitive advantage. The flaw in this, with respect to the Phillies approach, is the draft and bonus resources which they kept pouring into trying to develop OFs. I agree with you, and always thought that they had their best success with catchers, middle IFs, and pitchers. I realize you didn't mention pitchers, but they're on my list. You are correct that both Howard and Hoskins are success stories and great steals based upon the round in which we signed them. Prior to the current admin and the period when we drafted Rollins, Utley, Hamels, Myers I thought that the team had good scouts but that the higher ups took charge of and screwed up the selections for first round and highest international bonus.

[andyb]

Jake Cave homered off Andrew Bellatti today. And I just realized that Bellatti cleared waivers and is now safely on the AAA roster.

[zambonir]

Yeah Bellatti and Muzziotti were outrighted and invited to major league ST on the 13th.

Also a few fun transactions yesterday, not sure I've ever noticed these before.

https://www.mlb.com/phillies/roster/transactions

[zambonir]

Kolby Allard and Aaron Nola to start Phillies’ first two spring training games

[julio]

Also a few fun transactions yesterday, not sure I've ever noticed these before.

https://www.mlb.com/phillies/roster/transactions

I've never seen these listed before, although we know that number changes occur relatively frequently.

[zambonir]

Makes sense it has always had to be entered into the database, just wasn't transparent before.

[andyb]

Candidates for last spot on the roster:

Cave
Pache
Wilson
Clemens
Hall
Dahl
Castro (probably more insurance for Sosa but he is still around)
Kingery

Anybody else? None of them really make a good 26th man. The bench is very right-handed so the lefties on the 40 (Cave, Clemens, Hall) probably have an advantage. Pache might have the most value and is out of options. Dahl is not on the 40 so his status might depend on his minor league opt-out date. Of the 3 lefties on the 40, Cave plays the best OF defense, Clemens could spell Bohm from the left side at 3B, and Hall is the best hitter who has nowhere to start.

I'd probably rank them Cave then Pache then Clemens on likelihood to make the team. Maybe an injury will delay the decision for a second player. I'm really not expecting Dahl to be any good but I guess he is the most talented. Wilson would make more sense without Merrifield. Bottom line is it probably doesn't matter and the decision likely will depend in part on how they manage the 40 and what they really feel about Pache.

[This is pretty clearly a Spring Training discussion - I.e., who fills the back of the Opening Day roster. Move this and its replies. - J)

[zambonir]

With a five-man bench it's fine. With a 4-man bench (and only three non-catchers) you really do need an OF, and IF and someone who can do both (as well as one LHB and one RHB of the three. SH optional though Sosa is one and Merrifield appears to be capable from both sides if he's capable in general).

And you still got to play that guy who is only there to PH once or twice a week. When you don't you end up with a guy who bats .188 because he's not sharp and PHing (especially against modern bullpens) is hard.

As far as Hall, I think it's already pretty clear he can't hit well enough, and would not do well with minimal ABs either.

My guess is the bench mix is still not final. Maybe they trade Pache for someone later in spring training. But right now I would agree Cave is the third guy. He'd play some LF against RHP on days they also want to sit Rojas. I guess Dahl could beat him out. Clemens would be the most versatile.

[BostonRoss]

None of them really make a good 26th man.

Amen to that. It would be great if they signed someone better than all of them, a description that is not very exclusive.

I think absent another addition, it comes down to Cave if they want to spell Rojas more than Bohm, otherwise Clemens. If Clemens is a better Defensive 3B than Merrifield (might not be much to choose from there), I might go with him since Merrifield can play LF.