Phillies Sign 1B Carlos Santana

DurhamBull 2017-12-15 22:38:55 UTC #61

Santana has a total of 57 innings in the OF over his career. Hoskins already has more, so if Santana’s playing, it will be at 1B or DH. That means Hoskins is in LF or traded.

I don’t know that Hoskins in LF means that one of the OFs has to go. Williams would make a good 4th OF and will probably get a reasonable number of ABs filling in for the other OFs. Also, 2018 will be Hoskins’ first full season and at some point he will probably struggle badly. It’ll be nice to have someone to fill in for him who’s not chopped liver.

nycphils 2017-12-15 22:56:58 UTC #62

I'll be very surprised if they don't make a move for high end controllable young pitching - Cole, Stroman, Archer, Ordozzi, etc.

andyb 2017-12-15 22:59:00 UTC #63

As for Santana in the OF he did steal 11 bases as recently as 2015 so he can move a bit. And he does have a catcher's arm (which Hoskins does not) and that can compensate for a bit of range. Part of the reason Alfaro could be decent defensively in the OF is his average speed coupled with great arm strength.

andyb 2017-12-15 23:18:40 UTC #64

Fangraphs take is that this is about starting to win some in 2018 to look good for 2019 free agents. And they don't mind Hoskins defensively in the OF. Contract is fine value-wise.

Squire 2017-12-15 23:22:57 UTC #65

I'm ok with keeping everybody and rotating the 5 guys among 4 positions. Somebody is always hurt. We don't really have any backup OFs. Quinn is always hurt too.

andyb 2017-12-15 23:29:36 UTC #66

Though that is Quinn's 300 at bats that might have just disappeared.

I am guessing an outfielder will be moved to sort things out a bit. I am also nervous that having a defensive alignment with weak spots will invite defensive substitutions. This may not be a great idea with a 4-man bench. And Galvis could have been the bench guy that was good defensively everywhere. They need a catcher and a MI defensively. Then one of Williams/Altherr. There is only one more spot and ideally you have someone that can be a LH alternative at 3B.

IMO having both Santana and Hoskins in the starting lineup makes a 4-man bench a potentially bad idea.

julio 2017-12-15 23:32:27 UTC #67

Yes... and if our "backup outfielder" and first PH bat off the bench is one of these five guys every day, instead of Andres Blanco or Cameron Perkins? This could work.

To put it another way... 162 games times about 15 plate appearances - that's nearly 500 PA for each of five players... and that's assuming nobody goes on the DL, or is even day-to-day for a week here and there.

This will require an active and somewhat out-of-the-box field manager... which, as it just happens, ie what the Phillies have.

julio 2017-12-15 23:35:54 UTC #68

andyb - I would think that as of now (pending personnel changes), Pedro Florimon has the inside track on the backup middle infield spot... and since he switch-hits, he might be able to provide some relief for Franco at 3B as well... or he could get some starts at SS, with JP Crawford shifting to 3B to spell Franco. JP can certainly handle 3B.

Lucky_Beagle 2017-12-15 23:48:57 UTC #69

After reading all the comments and reflecting on the possibilities, I am fine with this signing. I could see it going either way that this is the beginning of another move or two to remove an outfielder for a pitcher or the team could be willing to go with the 5 covering 4 positions and have the flexibility of using the best match up each day.

zambonir 2017-12-16 00:07:59 UTC #70

I hope so but I think the market might be too steep. I think that was also true of the bats they were interested in trading for. At the end of the day, the comp pick and int'l was still a lot less than giving up players for a younger controllable OF, and they had plenty of money...

That said, rumor is Yankees package for Cole would be built around Clint Frazier, seems to me Williams is as good or better

Squire 2017-12-16 01:02:32 UTC #71

While it hurts a little to give up the Second rounder, we already have deals lined up with two probable top 25 international pitchers in the 2018 class. And we really just need to nail our #3 overall pick

For the most part I'm just excited to be a little relevant again, and this contract won't stop us from doing anything else we want to do.

Dirk41 2017-12-16 03:28:11 UTC #72

He's going to leadoff, isn't he? This season is going to be delightfully strange.

VoteForKalas 2017-12-16 15:50:08 UTC #73

Interesting move, going to let the resulting moves be made before fully reacting.

Do not love that he is 31 yrs old, but I guess the Phillies like his profile and want to add some more experienced players

Like his good BB and OBP numbers, good to see the Phillies focus on this and follow through. If they trade Hoskins, it will reverse the trend, but hopefully he will adjust to LF and be this era's Burrell out there. Never great, but servicable.

We do have some OF surplus to trade for pitching and I would support that, but do not want that OF to be Hoskins. Pitching is really our weak spot, lots of arms, but few dominant or elite level options. To seriously contend by 2019 or 2020 imo, the pitching needs to be majorly upgraded at the ML level.

schillingfan 2017-12-16 18:57:41 UTC #74

This is exactly my feeling. It reminds me of the Thome signing. It's great to hear people talk about Philly in terms of youth and future and having money, but this shows the players that we ARE a player in the game and we will eventually need to attract a big name pitcher for 2019.

Austinfan 2017-12-16 19:12:21 UTC #75

I don't think you need to signal agents, they can figure out who has money to burn, and the Phillies have been spenders since 2010 or so.
Santana is like Thome in that he's a veteran presence on a very young lineup.

California_Dreamin 2017-12-16 21:57:05 UTC #76

AF...you are incorrect here, SF and Squire are correct. Until Santana was signed, the Phils were probably viewed very skeptically by agents throughout the baseball world since no one [maybe not even Klentak] knew exactly when Mt. Middleton would eventually erupt and open up the wallet.

Something happened behind the scenes, I am convinced of it, and I believe it started...and ended with Middleton, perhaps even with some subtle push from Kapler once he had a chance to meet the players and peruse the roster. He might have indicated that the Phils were not far from being contenders and with the proper additions anything was possible, see Cubs/Astros and their quick turnabouts from one year to the next.

Now the agents know that not only do the Phils have the money to spend...but they are now serious about spending it. This matters to people like Boras and Co. Phils will still not be at the head of the financial spending class, but they are finally, at long last, once again in line.

zambonir 2017-12-16 22:32:19 UTC #77

The agents knew they had the money. That's why the Phillies were in so many rumors. And I don't think anything changed. The Phillies were linked to Santana over a month ago. I always believed they would get a bat, I just thought it would be a LF, not a 1B who moves Hoskins to LF. That Klentak was very publicly saying he wasn't going to be aggressive only made it more believable that he would walk away from a four-year deal or an outrageous trade demand. Which he surely has.

Santana's skill set was exactly what this front office likes and if all he does is improve this team from 75 to 80 games he's still worth it and it's not a wasted year like it might be if they signed a pitcher who breaks down by 2020. Basically they took advantage of a 'market inefficiency (teams are shying away from QOs, not that many 1B buyers) and their ability to overpay to get a deal. The price of admission to do that was the compensation and moving Hoskins but that's still cheaper than giving up talent in a trade for a bat, or getting locked into a four-five year deal.

The signal, ultimately, is not that the Phillies are open for business but, as everyone has hoped, that they have a better chance be good enough this year to be more attractive to those free agents. That puts them on an equal footing with another team that's willing to write a $400 million check.

We'll see if they add more than one starting pitcher. If not, they didn't really do anything that radical, they just decided to try and add 3-4 WAR via run production instead of run prevention.

California_Dreamin 2017-12-16 22:42:55 UTC #78

Having the money and spending it are two entirely different things.

allentown 2017-12-16 22:54:01 UTC #79

We can get by with one outside the organization guy, if that guy is
a #1/2 starter FA. New Guy, Nola, Sixto Sanchez, fill in the last two spots with young starters from our MLB and minor league teams. FA guy could be from MLB, Japan, or Cuba, or even our first round pick in upcoming draft if we get lucky with a college pitcher who moves fast.

zambonir 2017-12-16 23:25:12 UTC #80

(Taking this from Galvis thread)

I think they just liked Santana - and his price - better than any available 3B or LF. Particularly his OBP and switch-hitting. So they got creative, and obviously Hoskins graded out well internally during his time in LF last year.

And while it's unlikely to happen, Santana is not a no-field, no-other-position player, which this front office clearly values too. He might not ever catch but he's played 3B (though not for a while) and he played RF last year.

Right now detractors can only compare this move to nonexistent moves. Once Martinez and Hosmer and Moustakas sign I think it will look a lot better.