Phillies Hot Stove 2022-23

[andyb]

Correa is still a big time Latin American star even if he is American. So was Albert Pujols. So was Alex Rodriguez. So is Manny Machado. They all went through the draft and lived at various times in the U.S. but still had some pull across Latin America.

[allentown]

Exactly! It all goes to the question of how will people like me be treated by the organization and local fans and media, as well as how much they hear about Hispanics succeeding in that organization and having someone from that organization whom they followed, at least casually.

Frankly, I still think the Phillies need to overcome the negative perceptions of their treatment of Abreu. He was a legit star who was scapegoated and treated shabbily, with more than a hint that his being Hispanic was part of the reason. High OBP, high extra-base power, good speed, no worse defensively than most of the corner OFs we have trotted out the past several decades, including Harper and Schwarber.

[zambonir]

I feel like the Phillies have become a lot better in that regard over the past 10 years, unfortunately they were a lot of bad years (including when our Anglo manager spoke Spanish, and despite the fact that our upper-crust GM was Latin-American). The only good thing to come out of the Galvis/Hernandez/Franco/Herrera era - and you could also call it the Neris era at the end - was probably Paco Figureroa.

Abreu (like Herrera, and Rollins) had to face those racial double-standards but it was also a conservative baseball culture issue. Werth was barely more respected by the front office and much of the fan base (in 2010).

[Austinfan]

Abreu would have been a demi-god in the present day OPS era.
But a couple decades ago dinosaurs still roamed the earth.

[EDmuch]

Great let’s get negative and complain about things that happened more than a decade ago. Geesh, can’t we just let go of past grievances and enjoy the present where there seems to be a very positive organizational culture developing . And, not, I do not think there are many people obsessing about how Abreau was treated 13 years ago by a different management group. I think what they saw on TV during the post season was a close knit, fun clubhouse.

[Aquapong]

What racial double standards? I was young enough that I can’t comment on Abreu’s tenure, but Rollins and Hererra?

A lot of buzz on Twitter that Turner wants to be here, fwiw.

[California_Dreamin]

Thank you EDmuch! I haven't written in a while but not because I haven't been reading, just wanted to enjoy everything that was going on. But in reading things here today I would have thought the Phils were the dregs of the baseball world, not the reigning champs of the NL. And ED is correct, that Abreu nonsense is, frankly, foolish to even mention right now because there is absolutely NO evidence that there is even a semblance of prejudice again Latin players in this organization. Good Lord, Suarez was almost treated as a semi-god by his teammates during the playoffs, as was Dominguez.

Look, I understand why there is still some reluctance to jump on the latest edition of the Good Ship Chollypop [in honor of former manager Charlie Manuel] but trust me, its OK to get on board. The Phils may not yet be the center of the baseball universe but they are certainly back in the same galaxy. My buddy, who lives in the Bay Area and loves the Giants, says whenever he turns on a radio sports show all the talk is about the Phillies. He said that even the Bay Area sportscasters believe Rodon is a strong candidate to choose the Phils and down here in SoCal my Dodger loving buddies are telling me how much I am going to love Trea Turner!

While we may not have realized it when it happened but the organizations fortunes changed the day they hired Dave Drombowski. He is simply one of the greatest baseball executives in the history of the game bar none. He is not only very skilled at building a team but he hires great people and lets them work. Good skilled people no longer want to leave the Phillies, they want to come to Philadelphia. And any player who watched the playoffs and didn't get an overwhelming chill the moment that Hoskins hit that home run against the Braves and watched an entire stadium cause a seismic earthquake of pent up energy doesn't love the game.

One more thing to mention. The talk that Harper is a guy that teammates loathe has been proven completely false. He loves the city, loves the team, loves his teammates and, along with Schwarber, are incredible faces of the franchise.

Add to this, even Scott Boras is once again referring the Phillies as a potential Goliath again [he last said that in 2011]. To paraphrase something that Patrick Henry said back in 1775, "I know not what others may think but as for me give me the Phillies future or give me...the ability to take a time machine back to the year 2007!"

I am convinced that after too many years in the baseball wilderness, we are finally relevant again and as long as Middleton/Dombrowski/Thomson are making the decisions we will remain so.

[Austinfan]

Well, I'm not quite as optimistic CD. While there are good signs, in the end it comes down to rebuildling the minor league system - what has kept Houston and LA on top is their ability to produce top young players and let FAs walk (or in Houston's case, trade them for assets before they walk).

The future would be much brighter if someone like Rojas blossoms into a star CF. While Abel and Painter seem to have ended the wasted 1st rd pick pattern, and hopefully Bohm and Stott have another level to their game, you need to find some diamonds in the rough to maintain an edge on the competition - as the Angels show, lots of money and a couple stars won't get you anywhere if you can't build a team. Ranger and SD are a start, but they need to be the template, not the exception.

[Philsmania]

For a while, the Phillies phanbase had a certain antipathy toward black players (see the chilly reception for Dick Allen, talented as he was) and I think there is a persistent antipathy toward Latino ballplayers. Abreu was never really embraced (although he struck me as having a somewhat shy personality and probably preferred to avoid the limelight). Chooch had to deal with people saying Chris Coste should start ahead of him for much of 2008 (I remember it well from some forums I participated in) before becoming admired by the phanbase. More recently, fans on social media frequently identified the likes of Franco, C.Hernandez, Neris, Herrera and Galvis as their least favorite players. However, it does seem that Suarez and, maybe, Dominguez have had a Chooch-like breakthrough.

[EDmuch]

How about if we go back to how Phil’s treated Jackie Robinson the first time he played against us? Is that masochistic enough ?0

[EDmuch]

Isn't Ranger Suarez a "diamond in the rough"?

[andyb]

Isn't Ranger Suarez a "diamond in the rough"?

Of course he is. It is just that "diamonds in the rough" is not a strategy. Most of the prospects are the guys that sign for decent money. Every team can sign low level prospects and try to develop them (there are limits of space and playing time of course). But what teams do with their $6 million or so allocation is what matters and the Phillies' problem is not getting much out of the first $5 million of that allocation.

[Austinfan]

I don't remember Hernandez taking a lot of flak, and Galvis was generally like.

Franco was a tease, flashed potential but never hit consistently, that will get the fan base turned off.

Neris was more "Mitch Williams" syndrome, love him when he's on, hate him when he can't throw a splitter for a strike - not his fault he was asked to be a closer when he was better suited to being a 7th inning guy.

Herrera was an overpaid asshole who underperformed, would have been hated whatever his ethnicity.

[Sabin]

Yes, Crouse and Jones aren't eligible for minor league free agency until 2024 (e.g., next year).

I've noticed this occasionally in your posts; I think you're confusing e.g. ("for example") with i.e. ("in other words").

Not a big deal, as I know what you meant. But my inner Julio would be noting that, from our current (baseball) time frame, stating 2024 to be "an example" of next year would be

[allentown]

Most of the prospects are the guys that sign for decent money.

The Phillies have signed way too many 'diamonds in the rough' position players over the years -- guys without real baseball skills and paying 1st and 2nd round $ bonuses.. Unfortunately, either they were the wrong tools (sometimes just a single tool as in running speed for Hewitt and batting practice power for LGJ). More basically, the Phillies were totally inept at developing these players. Turns out both Hewitt and LGJ were badly scouted -- Hewitt couldn't play his H.S. SS position and also was below average defensively as an OF and had no hit tool. LGJ had no hit tool but also no desire to do the off-season work to develop his skills and conditioning and once he had his bonus displayed little interest in baseball. How did our scout miss that? If drafted Hewitt knowing he had to move off SS, how did we miss that he was a below average CF?

[julio]

Not a big deal, as I know what you meant.

No, thanks for this! I like to be correct, and I appreciate your noting when I'm not - not about opinions, of course (!), but if I have usage wrong, I want to know about it!

[zambonir]

I am personally capable of discussing disappointing things that happened in Phillies history (be it Abreu or Allen) as well as disappointing things that are still affecting the team now (int'l position player development) while enjoying what just happened in 2022 - and hopefully will happen in 2023 - no less fully.

And if the 2023 team turns out to be like the 2022 Giants or the 2014 Red Sox plenty of time to gripe about that then.

What racial double standards? I was young enough that I can’t comment on Abreu’s tenure, but Rollins and Hererra?

Rollins used to get it from the fan base for not running hard to first - and openly saying he didn't think there was any point in doing so every time - in a way a white player wouldn't have. Odubel was flaky and prone to mental errors but so was Victorino. Nick Castellanos isn't exactly popular (and neither is Rhys for that matter) but he still basically got away with publicly stating that he sometimes didn't try. Of course he said that during the World Series, when he was trying, and all was well. If he'd said it in June he would have gotten five days of WIP blast.

Of course if Abreu had gotten to be on a playoff team, much would have been forgotten and forgiven too.

[allentown]

As I recall Phillies manager and coaches disagreed with the music Rollins played in clubhouse.
Abreu was criticized by Phillies announcers for being too willing to take a walk with men on base and to unwilling to dive for balls or run into the fence -- these were announcers controlled by the Phillies.

Phillies traded away Allen in part for being a Phillies ballplayer while Black. The local media accused him of basically being uppity when he decided he wanted to be announced as Dick Allen, rather than Richie Allen. When he was in AAA the Phillies team was in Little Rock, Arkansas and a lot of the teams they played were in the South. He couldn't room in same hotels as his teammates, nor could he eat in the same restaurants. A White Phillies teammate physically attacked Allen and the fans blamed Allen. When Allen was traded to Cards, Curt Flood was part of deal from Cards. Given Phillies reputation for racism, Flood chose to retire rather than report to Phillies.

[Austinfan]

The 60s were the Carpenters, who were definitely racist.
By 2008, it was probably old men who didn't understand the kids, white or black.

In all sports, managers have had to make adjustments, "my way or the highway" doesn't work anymore. And these days the white kids are almost as likely to put some rap on the clubhouse stereo.

You can still be tough, you just can't be a martinet anymore, you'd better be able to sell your "tough love" to players.

[zambonir]

Was also the first World Series with not a single Black American player (albeit, the winning manager).

But hahaha these Phillies are the poster boys for suburban/heartland white rap fans, if you've paid attention to their walk-ups, or seen them talk about it.

I would say the main reason to be at all critical about the season that just ended in terms of this stuff is merely by applying the highest possible standard, and noting that the Astros' drafting and development was ultimately the difference between the two. And that difference was particularly stark with the international and young players.