Phillies 2016-2017 offseason Discussion

[Slinging_Southpaw]

Holaday is pretty underwhelming, IMHO. Bad OBP, limited power, apparently average or a little worse defensively. I'm not sure I want him in the reserve role instead of Andrew Knapp - nor in the AAA reserve role instead of Logan Moore.

How Did Boston Red Sox Catchers Frame Pitches in 20...

[bkeich]

He does carry a 0.00 ERA pitching in his career and has finished every game he has pitched in. (1.1 innings)

[Slinging_Southpaw]

He does carry a 0.00 ERA pitching in his career and has finished every game he has pitched in. (1.1 innings)

We do need a closer.

[Carver]

New guy here...have not had the chance to read this entire thread so I apologize for jumping to the end.

I like bringing Blanco back - lots of value in the guy to the entire team, and in a lot of subtle ways. I am very upset with the failure to pay a few more $$ ($$ that mean nothing to the payroll) to bring back AJ Ellis for another year. Understand the 40 man roster issue, but I have seen Knapp in person a number of times and the kid is not close to ready defensively for the majors. Alfaro needs the year at AAA to grow as well, and is our great hope at the position with All Star upside and talent.

This year however Rupp needs a backup, and a Holaday is just a cipher. Rupp has been a pleasant surprise overall, but we fool ourselves if we think that he is a tremendous defensive catcher that is a peerless handler of pitchers...he has a terrific arm and is otherwise only OK. An AJ is a necessary component for such a young staff, and helping the young pitching is the most important job right now. Knapp can't do it, Rupp could use more work and Alfaro needs to be in AAA. Why not spend a few more dollars to bring back the experience veteran?

I have seen far too many Hinkie Effect comments and moves (non-moves) by this new administration and I am not happy that they feel the need to take more seasons off in a large market to move things forward.

[schillingfan]

Welcome to the Board Carver.

[California_Dreamin]

Good to be back, been busy and had some trouble [my fault, not the site's] figuring out how to get re-registered but with lots of help...here I am.

In a quick summation of my off season thoughts, and with the feeling that Klentak is not done [still have a hard time believing Kendrick is going to play LF] I like what the Phils have done this off season so far.

Klentak seems to have a bit of Gillick in him...not making splashy moves but always trying to make the team a bit better with every move.

Hope the reports on Nola are true and that he is fine, this is a very big thing in my mind. Last year at this time, he was our ace, and now we are relegating him to #4 on the staff. He is potentially better than that if healthy.

Love the Herrera signing, many remember I was if not the President, then certainly one of the charter members of the Oduel Herrera Phan Club. Good for him and for the club.

Should be a fun team to follow and LHV should be strong also. Oh and by the way, one more thing...I believe Joseph should be given every opportunity to take the first base job full time, he is a potential 30+ homer hitter waiting to happen.

[Austinfan]

On Ellis, FAs have a choice of where they go. Fans sometimes forget that.

Money matters but with veterans who've banked $10-20M, so does playing on a competitive team, especially if we're talking maybe $500K after agent's cut and taxes (unless you want to grossly overpay).

[donaldorc]

Love the Herrera signing, many remember I was if not the President, then certainly one of the charter members of the Oduel Herrera Phan Club. Good for him and for the club.

Welcome back, CD. I've missed you on the board. I remember your love for Herrera, and must say it has rubbed off on me.

[California_Dreamin]

Thanks donaldorc, its nice to be back. Appreciate your kind words.

[Carver]

Thanks for the feedback Austin Fan, and thanks for the welcome Schillingfan!

I am not one of those fans that forget that a FA has choices. The fact is that AJ expressed sincere interest in coming back, and the Marlins are hardly a spectacular destination for someone like him. If he had gone back to LA then your point would have had much more merit.

Klentak had 3 catchers on the 40 man and would not commit to AJ early...AJ moved on. For me, the importance of that role on a team with so many young pitchers AND all young catchers is hard to overemphasize, and the trend where they are ignoring a number of things with the current major league roster for some nebulous point in the future is distressing when it doesn't fit the facts of a large market team. They consistently talk about rebuilding as if they are in Tampa Bay or Oakland and not Philly.

[allentown]

I am perfectly happy going with Knapp as the backup. I think Rupp will be just fine as the starter, but that he will need breaks. Knapp has done his time in AAA and is ready for a part-time role in Philly. I'd object if Alfaro was assigned as back-up, because that would retard his development, but I see Knapp's ceiling as being MLB backup catcher. Moving him out of Allentown gives more starts at catcher to Alfaro, which is a plus. I think Knapp will see almost as much time behind the plate in Philly as he would have in AAA. One can say he can DH or play some 1B, but with Hoskins and Stassi, that's not at all desirable.

I think the veteran catcher with young pitcher thing is vastly overblown. I think the argument for grow up with the guy who will eventually catch you in the bigs is equally strong. I think that MLB backup is/should be Knapp for the next few years. Both Alfaro and Rupp are too good to be back-ups. One will be traded at the appropriate time if both are working out.

And... welcome back CD! You have been missed.

[julio]

I'm delighted to come back in (from the latest insane seasonal rush-around) and see your name attached to a new post, CD! (This mean I can stop trying to figure out how to get you back in here!) Look around, give the new format a chance - I think it'll grow on you.

J

[LoneStarPhan]

Yes, add me to the list of those glad to see CD back on the board.

I do certainly remember CD's praise for Herrera before he set foot into a Phillies clubhouse.

[julio]

Crasnick with salary detail on the Bryan Holaday signing:

Jerry Crasnick (jcrasnick)

[zambonir]

Well, Holaday's presence will certainly tell us something at some point, though catchers do also get hurt. As julio noted it also raises questions about Logan Moore, do they just stuff him at AA if either Knapp or Holaday are in Allentown. I would tend to think Holaday is only a keeper if he makes the 25 (and he probably has an opt-out).

Regarding Ellis, I think, that, just as the period where it looked like he was never going to get over being kicked out of LA turned out to be short, so was the period where he really wanted to come back to Philadelphia that badly. The Marlins have a manager he played for nearly his entire career, plus a better shot of being in the postseason. I don't think another $1,000,000 would have been the difference

[julio]

Well, Holaday's presence will certainly tell us something at some point, though catchers do also get hurt. As julio noted it also raises questions about Logan Moore, do they just stuff him at AA if either Knapp or Holaday are in Allentown.

The thing is, you don't just push Logan Moore to AA with no further repercussions. If Moore is at AA, is he catching much, or is somebody else? Chace Numata had a solid season at Clearwater in 2016 - he really should be promoted and pushed. Bossart and Rivero weren't at High-A long enough to be ready to promote to AA, and Deivi Grullon has earned a promotion to Clearwater - so maybe Rivero gets pushed back down to Lakewood (and Brett Barbier gets promoted from Williamsport), and Grullon and Bossart split the High-A duties. That leaves Joel Fisher; what do we do with him?

[Carver]

Thanks Allentown...guess that we agree to disagree. I am somewhat prejudiced when it comes to catchers - over 40 years wearing the tools myself.

The vet catcher / young pitcher thing is not overblown at all (not being a wiseguy but there is a reason that they tally up catcher ERA and the like). Now if Rupp had an abiding strength in that arena, then I would be more comfortable with Knapp behind Rupp. And I do like Rupp - works hard / his bat could end up being a strength (love his basic swing) and he has a very good shot at being a quality starter for some time. But the areas that need work are exactly what a young staff needs...he is an average receiver and an iffy guy working with pitchers.

And Knapp is not even close to him - he is in the mold of a guy that will probably lose a lot of value because he needs a positional change unless the teaching really takes hold. His bat is his carrying tool but the bat will only play at a solid level if he can grow into being a real catcher - and when I have seen him he was still incredibly raw back there. Logan Moore is the guy that the Phils like as an organizational defensive specialist...Lino was also very good defensively although they let him go.

Completely agree that Alfaro needs the AAA starts - he is the high ceiling future if he develops as we hope. Great work ethic and tremendous tools and one heck of a stud athlete...he could be awesome. Until then Rupp is fine and could end up being quite solid as a starter. But the team could have really used AJ this season, and despite comments to the contrary he would have been happy to come back if the Phils had stepped up.

[Philsmania]

Holady makes Sal Fasano look good.

[phillychuck]

CD, nice seeing you back old friend...now the new board seems complete.

I think Rupp will get better defensively, and I'd like to see Knapp paired as a personal catcher with one of our older starters (like Hellickson). Let Hellickson work with him.

Not ideal, but the best we can do at this point I think.

I agree with CD that Joseph should get first shot at 1B--let Knapp give him a rest once in a while, or let Stassi come up, caddy for him, pinch hit, and occasionally play the OF.

[California_Dreamin]

Good to be back and talking Phillies baseball again and thanks again to everyone who has welcomed me back today, believe me the feeling is mutual.

I mentioned earlier today that I felt Klentak was not done and I still think Hernandez is the bait and Martinez is the hope. The key is if the Tigers can move Kinzler, if not the Phils might look elsewhere.

But I can't help but think the Phils view Hernandez as they did Giles...both good young players who should be moved while their value was likely the highest. Lets put it this way....given the season that Giles had in 2016 [not bad but hardly dominant] I doubt the Phils could have received the same package this off season if his numbers had been registered in Philadelphia.

The Phils love Kingery, its obvious and frankly I don't blame them. He seems so much like a Pedroia-lite to me and if the Phils don't move Hernandez while they appear not to have to they will get less when they decide to move him because he is no longer the starter.

Keep an eye on the Tigers and their efforts to move Kingery, right now its a giant chess match with teams in need of a 2nd baseman and players like Dozier [who could be moved] and Utley [who can signed as a free agent who are in need of a team.

Once the dust settles we will have a better idea about Martinez but he sure looks like a solid pickup to me. One thing I am sure of...the Phils know they need another bat, the bat should come from an outfielder, and that this bat is not currently on the roster.

I believe there will be much to talk about come January.