Odubel Herrera designated for assignment

zambonir 2020-01-15 05:52:09 UTC #21

Montemurro also notes he won't be in major league ST and actually gets a quote from Klentak.

Klentak said he spoke with Herrera earlier Tuesday to explain the move, which the player understood.

“I have no reason to believe they will object for the reasons I have given you,” Klentak said of Herrera’s camp. “I think there are a lot of sound baseball reasons behind this.

andyb 2020-01-15 13:42:13 UTC #22

That article implies that they probably have no intention to release him now. I think this is the reality that they probably could not release him for baseball reasons yet, and there is actually an upside to him playing well in the minors. This has nothing to do with the 40-man spot though. They were 100% sure he would not be claimed on waivers. He is actually more valuable to them off the 40-man roster than on it. They can even trade him to a team that might not yet have a slot on their 40. They essentially get one free promotion for Herrera if they choose to exercise it.

Saw what you will about Klentak, but he seems pretty adept at managing the 40-man roster, whether it is for moves like this or betting on the rule 5 draft.

There is just little upside to releasing Herrera now unless the incident was bad enough to justify that. I think they also have a reputation as being somewhat unfriendly to Latino players, so they probably are treading carefully because of that too. They can always release him in Spring Training or in May if he plays poorly. We really don't have great major league options if Haseley plays poorly, so this gives them one potential option with zero cost.

saycheese 2020-01-15 13:55:38 UTC #23

I doubt they outright release him. By not inviting him to camp they essentially take away his chance of making a MLB team. This could spur his agent to try and negotiate a deal to get him out of his contract or even get him traded to another team. Now the question is would another team have interest? They may be if he was a FA with a camp invite. Really going to come down to his desire to play in MLB again. Right now he won't get that chance here, he will just get his money

tom81 2020-01-15 18:50:45 UTC #24

I agree with a andyb, this just looks like a way to free a spot on the 40 man roster. No one will claim him and since he is a sunk cost just have him report to AAA spring training to see if he has anything left and has changed his attitude. As for playing if he plays well why not have him make some road trips with the big club to see him with tougher competition? Minor league guys in minor league camp frequently see spring training action with the major league team. Doing it on the road also keeps the profile lower.

zambonir 2020-01-15 19:17:49 UTC #25

It would make a very good prop bet. "Odubel Herrera will/will not be released before February 11."

It is true, he could very quietly play some split-squad games in other cities and there wouldn't be much in the way of media attention. But I still think they are just checking off the boxes.

tom81 2020-02-10 22:58:12 UTC #26

Looks pretty much like not. I’m pretty encouraged by this report. “ I admit that the identity of the player who looked like Odubel Herrera drew our attention for a while. During exercises he was positioned between Victor Arano and Edgar Garcia, so we wondered if he might be Robinson Martinez. The first clue that he was Herrera was when he went to the warning track to run with Carlos De La Cruz. When he took center field to shag when the catchers took BP we were sure. By the time he took BP we were certain.

Part of the difficulty identifying him was he appears to be in great shape. Even in a loose fitting Phillies’ hoodie, he looked slimmer. I would have described him as being a little barrel-chested in previous years. That is gone. He made a lot of solid contact during BP. His manner is subdued, although his face lights up when spoken to or approached. But this was an easy crowd, fans like me and autograph hunters. It’ll be interesting to see how he’s received next week, if he is indeed here. I can’t help wondering if he just showed up on his own. We’ll see.”

https://phuturephillies.com/2020/02/08/spring-training-update-2-7-2020/

zambonir 2020-02-10 23:05:15 UTC #27

I'd still move the bet to Opening Day (even in Allentown. I think there's a good chance he's still sitting in Clearwater on April 1, like Eshelman and a few other unassigned AAA-caliber players were last year).

But I wouldn't mind being proven wrong.

tom81 2020-02-10 23:11:42 UTC #28

I agree zambonir, a later date on none at all make a better poll than Feb 11th.

I just wanted to post a baseball related matter that had something to fantasize about.

LoneStarPhan 2020-02-11 00:28:46 UTC #29

I have seen reports that Herrera has done all the right things and even attended counseling beyond that required by MLB. He has reported to Clearwater in what appears to be the best shape ever. IF all that is true, and it seems to be, then I certainly hope the Phillies give him a fair and complete chance to come back and play in the majors again, if he shows his skills are still ML level.

zambonir 2020-02-11 03:03:12 UTC #30

But, by definition, they are not giving him a fair and complete chance. He's not one of the 70 (!) people invited to major league spring training. Which still strikes me as a violation of their "baseball reasons" pretense.

Maybe that will change. Or maybe they'll quietly move him over on a per-game basis after the initial rush of media (or after the likes of Moniak is sent back to minor league camp). But the message is still pretty strong: You're not on this team. You don't have a number or a locker.

tom81 2020-02-11 04:57:47 UTC #31

I disagree zambonir, he is not in camp by name only at this point. The Phillies are playing the game to expand the roster by one player, teams frequently take advantage of the quirks in the rules to “find value in the margins” just look at what happens all the time to manipulate service time. If he shows he can play at a plus major league level he will be on someone’s major league roster this year. He just has to prove himself because he has no leverage.

zambonir 2020-02-11 05:07:02 UTC #32

Being invited to spring training does not use a 40-man roster spot!

Austinfan 2020-02-11 15:29:30 UTC #33

I think it's more about sending a message to Herrera, we have to pay you but this is your last chance at a ML career.
Nothing will be handed to you anymore, you royally screwed up and have to pay your dues.

The thing is, if he goes to Lehigh and tears it up (supposedly he's in shape this year) they'll bring him back to Philly if he shows enough contrition to minimize fan blowback - he's probably untradeable until he shows he's an above replacement player given his contract and his baggage. Part of that set-up is making him earn his promotion, so it doesn't look like the organization is condoning his behavior by an "all is forgiven" invite to training camp.

Jazzhead 2020-02-11 15:57:17 UTC #34

I agree. If he's given a fair chance, I think he just may be our Opening Day centerfielder. When he's on his game, he's dynamic.

As for showing enough "contrition" to play again, my goodness he's served an 80-game suspension and taken the hit both professionally and financially, over an incident where the alleged victim didn't press charges and (as far as I am aware) remains involved with him.

BostonRoss 2020-02-11 17:15:54 UTC #35

If the incident hadn't happened and Herrera continued to put up his 2019 numbers all year, I would think he would have been a prime candidate to be non-tendered. While the Phillies might have offered him a minor league contract after that, I suspect he would have received a better offer from some team that thought they could get him back toward what he had been from 2015 to 2017.

Regarding his contrition, none of us have any idea, really. Whether his partner is still with him wouldn't say much about that. Abused women stay with their abusers all the time (e.g., Ray Rice). Even if she has left him, it wouldn't mean he wasn't a sufficiently changed man.

el-pietro 2020-02-11 17:28:58 UTC #36

He has a contract for two more seasons, plus a club option for 2022 and 2023. He couldn't be non tendered. The suspension wouldn't have stopped him being non tendered if he was going through Arbitration. They could release him but they'd have to pay up his full contract.

Austinfan 2020-02-11 17:35:19 UTC #37

In a twisted way, this works in the Phillies favor.

Herrera was on the decline, wasn't exactly a conditioning fanatic, and would have put the Phillies in a tough spot.

Now they can demote him to AAA, and he's probably far more motivated since he knows if he doesn't perform this year he'll probably never get another shot at a ML job.

They have to pay him anyway, but if this becomes the wakeup call that gets him into shape and more receptive to coaching and willing to put the work in to regain his early form, he may end up the player they were hoping he'd become when they gave him that contract.

julio 2020-02-11 17:40:29 UTC #38

Not quite right. Herrera was not a candidate to be "non-tendered" a 2020 contract, because he's under contract - a guaranteed contract - through 2021, with club option (and buyout) for 2022 (and 2023, if they wanted him). The Phils are on the hook for $20.2 million, period.

You could revise this to posit that Herrera would be (and still could be) a candidate for unconditional release. But he's going to get his $20.2 million, regardless.

The questions have been about whether the Phillies could justify a release - e.g., differentiate the reasons for release from just "more punishment" - which is prohibited under the CBA, and could result in a grievance.

If Herrera were not on a guaranteed contract... in that case, I suspect a non-tender would have occurred, with the (legitimate) justification being that Herrera's just not worth the salary he would get in arbitration (he was paid $5.35 million in 2019, and would get at most a small reduction in arbitration). But since they signed him to a guaranteed multi-year contract, that's not relevant. They cannot justify releasing him to save money - they won't save money. They need a performance-based justification... and we're talking about a 28-year-old former All Star, who plays a position where the club is not "set" on somebody else. (Yes, we have hopes for Haseley, and Quinn might conceivably play a season without injury , but it's not as if Herrera has been rendered redundant by an obviously better CF.)

If Herrera performs even reasonably well in ST, my expectation is that the club will not cut him loose - they'll either trade him (along with most of the $20 million he's owed, or in exchange for some other club's $20 million problem), or send him to Allentown, where he might yet force his way back to the Phillies.

bkeich 2020-02-11 18:54:03 UTC #39

I think it is possible that he might actually play his way on to the opening day lineup, it will be very telling how many at bats he gets in the spring.

My guess is that it is very possible that he will he used sparingly simply to avoid the problem, send him to AAA for a month and then re evaluate.

He gets significant at bats in hopes that he hits .400 and wins a “prove it to us” 3rd - 5th OF spot.

Some of this is going to depend on Haseley.
Some on Quinn, whose job he might take.
And let’s not forget, McCutchen. We really don’t know much about his status. If he isn’t ready then Herrera quickly becomes a solid chance assuming we don’t want Bruce as our starting LF (I am sure the pitching staff doesn’t)

julio 2020-02-11 20:01:44 UTC #40

I don't see this happening... not even necessarily because of the domestic violence incident.

Last year's circumstances forced the Phillies to promote Adam Haseley prematurely. Haseley struggled at first, seemed to get his feet on the ground (July OPS of .804), slumped in August to an OPS of .603, as perhaps other clubs developed something of a book on his weaknesses, but rebounded well in September, to an OPS of .786 - which may suggest that he was adjusting in response to being pitched more carefully.

Given that performance - when he really should have been gaining AAA experience - I would not be in any hurry to demote Haseley to AAA, nor to bury him in a bench role. He'll be playing at age 24 this season, and if he can produce an OPS similar to what he did in September-October 2019, that's as good offensively as Herrera has ever been. Haseley is four years younger than Herrera.

I don't see what Odubel Herrera can do in ST that would outweigh all that, enough to justify vaulting him over Haseley at this point. This is not to argue that Haseley will be a star or anything - but Herrera's performance has steadily declined since his rookie season (OPS+ decline in every year since), and there's little evidence that he's really teachable. Haseley, OTOH, does appear to respond to coaching/instruction...which bodes well for his improvement, compared to Herrera.

Would I rather have Mike Trout in CF. Well, yeah (doh). But on Opening Day, I believe the Phils would be better served by having Adam Haseley there than Odubel Herrera - on the baseball merits alone.