Odubel Herrera designated for assignment

[zambonir]

Philadelphia Phillies on Twitter

[Philsmania]

You just beat me to it.

[David_Criss]

Don't get the Martini addition. At this point with ST just a few weeks away, I'd have let Herrera try and establish a trade value in ST and he could have been sent to AAA. I think we all knew he was gone and wouldn't be welcomed back, but this timing seems strange.

[Squire]

Would be cool if ONE of the 100 Phillies beat writers explained what happens next.

[zambonir]

They will, but it's not exactly a mystery. If nobody wants to trade him they can either release Herrera, if they feel they are on solid ground there (i.e. for "baseball reasons") or he simply remains in the organization. He can still be sent to AAA. And Klentak probably won't comment for now.

Most likely he is being released, and (obviously) it's not just about baseball. If nothing else, he won't even be invited to major league spring training now and therefore won't be talking to the media. But I still doubt it comes to that.

Martini may not even make it to April himself, he's irrelevant. If it wasn't him it would be someone else (including all the current minor league deal guys). All it says for sure is that they'd rather hang on to all their pitchers and a guy like Gamboa, whereas they were never going to keep Herrera.

[Squire]

I guess my specific question is assuming nobody wants to trade for him, and then assuming that nobody claims him on waivers and assuming that they offer him an assignment to AAA, if he refuses that assignment to become a free agent do the Phillies get out of the contract?

[zambonir]

I don't think he can refuse an assignment. Doesn't even have the service time I don't think? And has options.

But it does set up the scenario where the Phillies offer to pay him a % of his deal and just set him free, instead of stranding him in the minors (wouldn't have to be AAA either). He can of course call that bluff if he figures they don't want him in one of their minor league markets (which they shouldn't) and demand the full pay.

Having him go unclaimed by all 29 teams also allows them to plausibly say he has no value as a baseball player.

I don't think Herrera would refuse the assignment in any case because he knows he's not catching on with another team easily (and even if he did it would only be for a tiny amount of money compared to what the Phillies owe him).

[andyb]

It is actually a tricky question. The way I read the rule is a player can refuse an assignment if they fit one of 2 categories. One, if they have 3 years of service and have been previously outrighted. This does not apply here. The second category is if they have 5 years of service time. Odubel is listed as 4.088 on baseball reference because it does not look like he accrued service time when he was suspended. He would have 5 if he had been up the whole year.

My guess is he will be released and the point is moot, though admittedly if the plan was for him to play at AAA and he could not refuse the assignment then this is a clever way to get a 40-man spot back.

[zambonir]

There's also really no reason for Herrera to take issue with being released even if it's obviously not for baseball reasons. He can take his money and look for a new team. Were he to file a grievance he just goes into limbo, and it looks like he's trying to litigate the consequences of the domestic violence suspension (even if that's his right), which does nothing for the "I learned my lesson and want a fresh start" narrative he needs to be selling other teams.

FWIW Zolecki is treating this like a fait accompli though he surely knows that's not how DFAs work exactly.

Todd Zolecki on Twitter

[fish]

It is actually a tricky question. The way I read the rule is a player can refuse an assignment if they fit one of 2 categories. One, if they have 3 years of service and have been previously outrighted. This does not apply here. The second category is if they have 5 years of service time. Odubel is listed as 4.088 on baseball reference because it does not look like he accrued service time when he was suspended. He would have 5 if he had been up the whole year.

My guess is he will be released and the point is moot, though admittedly if the plan was for him to play at AAA and he could not refuse the assignment then this is a clever way to get a 40-man spot back.

Is there a catch though? Rusney Castillo's contract would have been voided if he refused assignment after being removed from the 40 man. As it were, he accepted assignment, gets paid, and it doesn't count against the Sox. I assume there must be something about Herrera's service time that prevents the Phils from playing it out like that.

[Squire]

Haha. Literally everyone of the beats (Zo, Breen, Salisbury) simultaneously updated their story to say that it is likely he gets outrighted to the minors if he clears waivers

[zambonir]

The rules about guaranteed contracts for guys sent down to the minors counting against the CBT tax changed after Castillo (not him specifically, but in general).

Phillies must have quietly assured the beat writers they don't intend to release Herrera (yet), just to keep up the "baseball reasons" pretense.

[andyb]

I am fine with him playing at AAA. He'd be the 4th or 5th OF there but as long as Moniak and Stephen and maybe Williams play, I am not sure we have anyone better to give the AB to. If he is doing poorly after a couple of months then release him then. Until that point he is insurance and maybe they turn him into something like an international allocation slot.

[zambonir]

I just don't see it happening. Heck they could park him in Clearwater if they want, without even assigning him to a team.

These are the Phillies, even if it's not 100% about taking an ethical stance, they don't really enjoy bad press. Iron Pigs Opening Day you'd have both the Philly media and the Lehigh Valley media covering nothing but Herrera.

Meanwhile the appeal of Martini is he has an option remaining, unlike Gosselin or Szcsur. He's your emergency CF if he makes it out of spring training.

[andyb]

Meanwhile the appeal of Martini is he has an option remaining, unlike Gosselin or Szcsur. He's your emergency CF if he makes it out of spring training.

Except Herrera is better than Martini. Throw out the PR considerations for the moment and assume everyone deserves a second chance. If Herrera gets back to where he was 2 years ago and does everything he has to do off the field, then he should get another chance. The option is meaningless also. If Herrera is ever called up he is here to stay. And if he is claimed on waivers then the Phillies would be out of the contract which is something they currently want.

We make far too many assumptions about an incident we know next to nothing about. As I said, I am guessing they just release him. That is not necessarily fair to the player though. Plenty have done worse and received second chances. He needs to earn it, but he should get that chance.

[zambonir]

Well, that's where it comes back to "baseball reasons." If he hadn't been arrested how easy would it have been to trade him? How likely would the Phillies have been to keep him? Only difference between him and Franco is the sunk cost. But if they really wanted to give Herrera a second chance over someone like Martini (or Szcsur) they'd just keep him on the 40, it's not like there aren't other expendable assets on it.

If Herrera gets $20 million and free agency that's actually a much better second chance for him than Phillies minor league spring training.

As you said you don't want Stephen or Moniak to lose playing time, and someone like Szcsur or Martini is going to play in order to be ready for call-ups, and Williams will be there too, so getting 1 or 2 starts a week in AAA isn't going to help Herrera's career or his trade value.

[Dirk41]

Does Odubel ever play in the majors again?

[LoneStarPhan]

Herrera certainly presents a difficult dilemma for the Phillies. If he truly has remorse for the incident and has been a model of deportment since, then it seems he does deserve a second chance, both by the basic agreement and by any sense of what is the right thing. Of course, the Phillies know much more about his remorse and behavior than we do. While Herrera's play last season before the suspension was not good and could support a "baseball reason" to release him, it certainly could be challenged based on his first three seasons with the Phillies. The Phillies also have a cost (over $20 million) to release Herrera, although it is the same amount they will pay him anyway if he is not released.

Putting Herrera on waivers at this time gives the other teams a chance to take him (and his contract) off the Phillies books. This seems very unlikely to happen. If he clears waivers, it would seem to me a no brainer to outright Herrera to the minors rather than release him. This gives the Phillies the open spot on the 40 man roster and allows them to send Herrera to the less visible minor league camp.

If Herrera is remorseful and has shown appropriate off field behavior, the story could be used to overcome the initial opposition to bringing Herrera back to the majors (by the Phillies or another team) if his baseball skills and performance in spring camp and in some months of minor league play. Perhaps some team would at some point be willing to take him in a trade. The Phillies might have to pay part of the salary, but perhaps could recover a portion of the twenty plus million.

I know many say just release Herrera now. I would like to see the Phillies recover some value from the contract they are bound by at this point. I also want to see the Phillies treat Herrera fairly. I certainly do not know his character or his remorse or lack thereof since the incident last year. I do believe that his actions in that incident are unacceptable and deserve punishment, but the judicial system did not pursue the case and MLB did punish Herrera in accordance with the basic agreement. If there is nothing else we don't know, Herrera deserves a fair second chance.

Of course, his fall off in performance in 2018 and in the early part of 2019 suggest that his career was on a significant downturn and he may well have played himself into a release had he played a full 2019 season, The domestic violence incident makes it more difficult to be clear that a release was solely a "baseball decision".

For now, outrighting him off the 40 man roster seems to be a logical move.

[schillingfan]

I want to see how he plays in the spring and minors. I doubt the Phillies ever bring him back, because the fans were so down on him already, and don’t trust him to be consistent, but if he plays well he could bring trade value, either through a salary dump or by paying the salary and getting a good return. I don’t see any harm in the DFA and assignment to minors once he clears waivers.

[zambonir]

I think if the Phillies were serious about giving him a second chance he would still be on the 40-man. Their every move has been designed to release him for baseball reasons. He'd already just about lost his starting job before the arrest. He definitively does not have a place on the 26-man roster or in CF (4th-string behind Haseley, Quinn and Kingery, and possibly a utility guy too). And now he's off the 40 and will be unclaimed by 29 other teams.

It's a classic sunk cost situation really - he's not going to rebuild any more value, just like Hernandez and Franco never did. The best thing they can do to give Herrera a second chance is give him the opportunity to sign with another team for minimum, or pursue jobs outside MLB (foreign or independent).

As a player who is not on the 40 and will not have an invite to major league spring training, he won't be playing any meaningful innings in Clearwater either. He is gone, the fact that the writers backpedaled today to note that he could be sent to the minors is just part of the Phillies following proper procedure.

What would be nice is if some team shockingly stepped and made an offer for him during the DFA period. But really the only way the Phillies could trade him is if they sold a few prospects with him (they'd still have to pay a lot of his salary too, but you could shave off a little of the CBT hit). We don't have that luxury though.

His value right now is basically, "if you take him and 1/3 of his salary, we'll give you Enyel De Los Santos and a catcher." It's not gonna move all the way from that to, "give us something for him." Even if he did go to AAA and hit .400 that just makes him like every other replacement-level AAAA player who didn't choke someone.