News of Former Phillies 2019/2020

[BostonRoss]

I agree that it's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Value. You become more famous by having your value crammed into one or two areas, not spreading it across different areas. And you become more famous by having a career with some noticeable peaks where you are in the discussion about being a top five player, even for a brief time.

It's notable that Abreu put up his big numbers during a big offensive era. He never led the league in any major category and never finished in the top five in OPS, OPS+, or position player WAR. Even in his best category, OBP, he had only two top five finishes.

I loved Abreu as a Phillie, and he was about as valuable a player as Gwynn, Winfield, or Ichiro. But those other guys are way more famous. Bobby's in the same boat as players like Dwight Evans and Reggie Smith.

[Philsmania]

I agree that it's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Value. You become more famous by having your value crammed into one or two areas, not spreading it across different areas. And you become more famous by having a career with some noticeable peaks where you are in the discussion about being a top five player, even for a brief time.

It's notable that Abreu put up his big numbers during a big offensive era. He never led the league in any major category and never finished in the top five in OPS, OPS+, or position player WAR. Even in his best category, OBP, he had only two top five finishes.

I loved Abreu as a Phillie, and he was about as valuable a player as Gwynn, Winfield, or Ichiro. But those other guys are way more famous. Bobby's in the same boat as players like Dwight Evans and Reggie Smith.

And Rollins's resume is boosted by his superlatives--the MVP, the Gold Gloves, the three All-Star appearances, being the shortstop for a dominant team, his big Postseason moments, the larger than life persona. As you say, it's the Hall of Fame. I certainly hope that the whole HOF selection process doesn't get reduced to a mere calculator exercise. Having said that, it's possible that Rollins may be one of those guys who stands a stronger shot in one of the Veterans Committees.

[zambonir]

Yeah it's called the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Value or Achievement, and popularity contests are popularity contests - which also become self-fulfilling, since those players tend to get the annual awards. But if you approach the criteria like a judge or jury would, those things shouldn't matter. Of course in reality the writers are no more objective than the fans, and not being a media-friendly player hurts you (even if you're just neutral like Abreu rather than disliked like Curt or Bonds).

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

[Philsmania]

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

I would say that is a very subjective standard!

[andyb]

I have always thought the Hall intended to enshrine the best players, with the "fame" aspects being tie-breakers for 2nd tier candidates (great counting stats, all star appearances, championships, etc.). The evaluation of best players has clearly evolved to more properly value defense and on base percentage, but the intent has always been there. 500 home runs and 3000 hits were the benchmarks we had 40 years ago and now we (as a whole) are more sophisticated.

If fame were that important historically a Don Mattingly or Steve Garvey would be in and an Edgar Martinez would not be. If those players played in the 1950s and 1960s I think who was in would be reversed.

[zambonir]

Any Hall of Fame candidacy is a marketing campaign, is all. If you had a big personality or played for a big (and winning team) it just gets you a little further. It could probably even be quantified to some extent. Even a Jeter probably gets fewer votes if he played for Cleveland (and if he played for Cleveland he also might not have the counting stats and championships he did). Chase will probably lose a few votes from NY writers, but adding LA to his career couldn't have hurt (would have been better if they'd won while he was there though).

Rolen suffers from the same low profile as Bobby, really, even if his long-term chances may be greater. But I guess the Phillies won't be pushing him.

[flyers19rw]

Curt Simmons and Bob Miller, the last two Phillies Whiz Kids, keep the memories...

A touching article which brought back some significant memories. Excellent work by its author Frank Fitzpatrick.

[Philsmania]

Curt Simmons is the last living Whiz Kid. When I was a kid in the '70's (and, to a lesser extent, into the early '80's, most of them were still able to play in old timers' games.

[LoneStarPhan]

If only Simmons had hired the kid down the street to cut his grass.

[flyers19rw]

If only the government handn't called up the National Guard in '50.

[BostonRoss]

I have a recollection of seeing an old timers game at the Vet where the Whiz kids recreated the win against the Dodgers in some way (though the details escape me). It would make sense that it was 1975 since that was the 25th anniversary. Most of them seemed to be there although Dick Sisler was not (I think he had passed away). IIRC, Stan Lopata took that final at bat.

[BostonRoss]

I certainly hope that the whole HOF selection process doesn't get reduced to a mere calculator exercise.

I have always thought the Hall intended to enshrine the best players, with the "fame" aspects being tie-breakers for 2nd tier candidates.

This is the great thing about sports discussions. People can have differing valid opinions about topics like awards and can have an interesting discussion.

I think that the Hall of Fame should include who the overwhelming consensus of knowledgeable fans think belong there. Tony Gwynn got 98% of the vote, and I suspect that close to 98% of knowledgeable fans think he belongs. I don't think anywhere near that percentage think Abreu belongs.

I think the writers do a good job of getting the right people into the Hall of Fame (the various incarnations of the Veterans Committee--not so much). They make mistakes, and some of the voters let personal feelings get in the way, especially when they worry about who gets in on the first ballot (does anyone care that Joe DiMaggio, Yogi Berra, and Harmon Killebrew didn't get in on the first ballot?). But the people they elect are almost always the ones that the vast majority of fans think should be there.

And so that means fame does matter. Otherwise, there would be an outcry that Dwight Evans is out and Gwynn and Winfield, and Ichiro (soon) are in. Even where I live, there is no outcry, just some whimpers.

[zambonir]

This is a nice interview and I guess the Phillies did indeed do something for Rolen as well as Abreu.

Scott Rolen’s HOF candidacy gaining steam, but first he belongs on Phillies Wall...

[Philsmania]

When Rolen tweeted a nice tribute to Montgomery after his passing in 2019, that led me to believe that a rapprochement between him and the Phillies organization might be underway.

[Philsmania]

David Buchanan back with the Seibu Lions in Korea.

KBO Signings: Tucker, Buchanan

[zambonir]

Younger than I would have guessed but it's easy to forget who played win when the players and teams are themselves forgettable. Of course that wasn't long ago at all.

[andyb]

Buchanan was a legit AAAA starter - the kind you stash in AAA and hope clears waivers after you need him. No surprise that he chose stability in Korea over that AAAA lifestyle.

Future career path for Cole Irvin? Imagine Eshelman will look in that direction at some point too. It is just hard to get a steady MLB job with a mediocre fastball no matter how good your command is. Home runs fly out of the park with too much frequency with the new baseballs for starters that do not miss many bats to succeed.

[Lucky_Beagle]

The Reds have signed lefty Jesse Biddle and........ to minor league contracts with invitations to big league camp, Mark Sheldon of MLB.com tweets.

[Lucky_Beagle]

The Texas Rangers will sign Edubray Ramos to a minor league deal with an invitation to spring training, per the Athletic’s Levi Weaver (via Twitter).

[xogfog]

The Mets sign Jerad Eickhoff.

Mets Sign Jerad Eickhoff