Mackanin will not be extended beyond this year as manager

Patchmk88 2017-09-29 18:11:08 UTC #1

Reported that he will become a special assistant to the GM beyond this year.

zambonir 2017-09-29 18:15:39 UTC #2

He didn't need to be extended, so that's how he'll be earning his 2018 money (and probably his 2019 money too) now.

Funny, I was just reading Ryan Lawrence's column today which took it as an article of faith that he'd be back, I wondered if the winds had shifted.

zambonir 2017-09-29 18:21:12 UTC #3

It wouldn't be surprising to see the Phils opt for a young, analytically-inclined manager given Klentak's background and owner John Middleton's desire to push the Phillies to the forefront of that movement.

That's what I'm still hoping. Not another old-school (or older) guy, even if Showalter is the best of that demographic. And it just seems unlikely to me that Klentak and MacPhail's choice will be a minor league manager hired by the previous regime.

DougLindsay 2017-09-29 18:28:17 UTC #4

They gave Wathan a nice raise to keep him from leaving for a major league job last offseason. Not sure he'll get the job, but they really like him.

Philsmania 2017-09-29 18:59:34 UTC #5

I endorse Wathan.

bkeich 2017-09-29 19:00:52 UTC #6

There is a certain humor in taking a guy who was going to the press to criticize the FA (or at least get them to act) and put him in the front office.

He was not a good manager, but he is a good baseball man. Good to retain him.

Wathan? I guess that is everyone's assumption. I would rather get an experienced manager. Wathan is TOO connected with our prospects, he may not be able to deal with them being dealt / benched / given up on. Kinda the opposite of Jim Fregosi when he was in Philly.

Philsmania 2017-09-29 19:19:10 UTC #7

This historical parallel I like to draw is Davey Johnson with the Mets in the '80's. First, he managed at Jackson, the Mets' AA team, then he managed at Tidewater, the Mets' AAA team before going up to NY to manage the Mets. I recall some Mets veterans complaining that he was biased in favor of the guys he managed in the minors.

zambonir 2017-09-29 19:37:13 UTC #8

The Phillies haven't conducted interviews for a manager in 13 years. And even then they promoted the internal guy. And before that was Bowa, so they haven't hired an outside manager in two decades.

So, all I know for sure is I want to see a search.

andyb 2017-09-29 19:52:32 UTC #9

And some of their better managers in the past 30 years (Francona) did come from outside searches. Manuel had been hired as a special assistant GM and was not subject to a search, but he was a new voice from outside the organization. Fregosi was mostly from outside too.

Now one could say that Francona never had great results with the Phillies, but he also never had great teams. One just never knows if the young manager is considered good in their first chance, or more their second or third chance. A large variable is likely the young manager often getting saddled with mediocre teams.

I think Wathan should be in the mix here. But I want them to search relatively wide and not have a preconception of an experienced manager. My stealth candidate is of course Chooch - just doubt they would do that without giving him an apprenticeship as bench coach for a few years.

Philsmania 2017-09-29 20:05:41 UTC #10

andyb:

And some of their better managers in the past 30 years (Francona) did come from outside searches. Manuel had been hired as a special assistant GM and was not subject to a search, but he was a new voice from outside the organization. Fregosi was mostly from outside too.

Now one could say that Francona never had great results with the Phillies, but he also never had great teams. One just never knows if the young manager is considered good in their first chance, or more their second or third chance. A large variable is likely the young manager often getting saddled with mediocre teams.

I think Wathan should be in the mix here. But I want them to search relatively wide and not have a preconception of an experienced manager. My stealth candidate is of course Chooch - just doubt they would do that without giving him an apprenticeship as bench coach for a few years.

My impression of Francona now, and I have stated this on other threads, is that Tito was miscast as the ideal manager for a young, rebuilding team. I still don't think he was a particularly good manager here in Philadelphia. Aside from Lieberthal, young players didn't improve that much under him and Rolen seemed to plateau to an extent after his second season. And, there did seem to be a lack of accountability and a sense of accepting losing during his last couple of years here. Sometimes, I think younger teams may need a firmer hand in order to install a sense of direction and accountability, probably not Dallas Green/Larry Bowa firm but probably more firm than the laid-back Francona was. In Boston and Cleveland, Francona had/has the opposite--he had/has veteran teams filled with smart veterans, guys who had/have a winning attitude and clubhouses that police themselves pretty well. Fregosi had the same thing with the Phillies in 1993.

allentown 2017-09-29 20:07:08 UTC #11

May change my mind when I learn the identity of the new guy, but I think it was time for Pete to go. I really don't see any way in which he was ever going to be any better than an average manager and don't think he had achieved that level yet, so why continue. I want a guy who a few years from now will be viewed as among the top managers in baseball -- hopefully a younger guy, but bottom line is a guy with superlative ability, including temperament. Really, whomever they hire, especially a young guy, mandate watching about a dozen Andy Reid press conferences. Any problems with the Eagles were always Andy's fault, at least according to Andy. The Phillies staff over the years have largely been all too quick to point their finger at one or more scapegoat player(s), often stars.

flyers19rw 2017-09-29 20:26:49 UTC #12

He would be a favorite for mine as well. However with Klentak and Middleton pushing the analytics side of the game, do you believe that Chooch would be a good fit? That and no experience might get in his way. I'd really like to see him back in the organization in some form. He's a smart, classy guy.

andyb 2017-09-29 20:41:41 UTC #13

I think as a younger baseball guy Chooch would be more open to analytics than older guys. Would he be the ideal analytics manager? Probably not. But that is often the front office's job. They clearly did that the last couple of years with shifts defensively. I assume Chooch is probably well versed in pitch counts and all the pitch fx types of analytics.

Managing is tough to evaluate. There are very few innovators out there. Sometimes it comes down to getting a manager that the rest of the players believe in who just does not get in the way of analytics. Like Manuel. On Xs and Os he was probably mediocre. But guys played hard for him and liked him. He also had some unique strengths on the hitting side where he undoubtedly helped some of our power hitters.

zambonir 2017-09-29 21:09:14 UTC #14

Like all such lists, some serious, some fantastic, some purely jokes.

My surprise candidate would be Gabe Kapler.

The 2018 Phillies managerial search

VoteForKalas 2017-09-29 21:32:11 UTC #15

Another Special Asst. to the GM? What would he be doing for the GM in this capacity? I guess he and Charlie can go for burgers together.

Strange how if you're not good enough to be manager that you get promoted, but this is still the Phillies way under Middleton.

I like Mac, but I agree he needed to go as manager.

VoteForKalas 2017-09-29 21:35:16 UTC #16

Beyond mind boggling, I want to see a wide legit search as well. This again will be a sign if Middleton really is different than the previous regime

EDmuch 2017-09-29 22:04:44 UTC #17

Well this certainly suggests the FO is looking to make start being competitive in 2018, not 2020 as suggested by some around here. If they are making this move for 2018, I can see the wheeling and dealing with the lineup for 2018 also.

andyb 2017-09-29 22:23:02 UTC #18

They are at least sending mixed signals. At one point they say they want more stopgaps like Buchholz and Hellickson. At another point they apparently drive rumors for guys like Stroman and Yelich.

I am not sure they know if they want to try to put a competitive team on the field in 2018. Maybe they just see it being impossible to compete for guys like Darvish and Lynn. Or maybe they see a young team playing .500 ball almost for half a season and realizing that the young guys (at least the position players outside of Nola) are actually good. They have done this with one real starting pitcher and that is impressive. They probably have gotten lucky in the bullpen as guys like Milner and Ramos and Morgan are probably not as good as their topline stats suggest, but I think the FO is warming to the idea of targeting 80-85 wins next year and putting the team in position to compete if things break right and they are a little lucky.

And I like that. If you are finally ready to compete and you know Mack is not your longtime manager, why wait?

donaldorc 2017-09-29 22:46:06 UTC #19

Where do you see the drive for stop gaps? I think that since they dropped Mackanin, they are sending a clear signal that they want to be competitive as soon as possible.

LoneStarPhan 2017-09-29 23:07:03 UTC #20

I have been clear that I think they needed to change managers during this off season. I expect improvement next season although not necessarily to being in the serious running for post season play. I think they likely would have improved substantially with Mackenin as the manager, but if they allowed that to happen, then making a change in a year would be more difficult. If you think they need someone else for the competitive years (say starting in 2019 or 2020), then they need to get that person in the job now. I fully support making this move.

I am fine with moving Pete to the assistant to the GM job. For one, they are committed to paying him next year. Also, he seems to be an experienced baseball man who has served in a variety of roles.

I have always supported the manager having the biggest say into who his coaches should be. I suspect that several of the current ones will be gone, but would not be surprised if several are retained. First, they need to get the manager job settled.

Some are saying they think the front office already has someone in mind. I have no idea if they do or do not. I expect someone will be named by the end of the year.