Hall of Fame Discussion 2022 and Beyond

[bkox]

Plus, after his achilles injury (not that he was ever fast) he really was so slow on the basepaths that they needed to play station to station if he was on first

[Philsmania]

Considering that there were signs--mostly in peripheral stats--that Howard's decline was already underway before the achilles injury, I've unscientifically extrapolated that with a more gradual decline to his career (instead of just dropping off the cliff like he did), he probably would have hit another 35-40 HRs which what have put him around 415-420 for his career, still not HOF level. Perhads his peripheral stats would have been better but I don't think enough to really put him in the HOF discussion.

[bkox]

Oh I dont think he should be in the HOF. But I do think his number should be retired

[andyb]

I agree that I would retire his number. I also would not have retired Halladay because I do think there should be a minimum number of years with the team considered or a share of their career. Though if Howard's number is retired that means Rollins, Utley, and Hamels should all be retired as well. At some point one draws a line and Howard is close to whereever that line is.

Preference should clearly be given to players that contribute to World Series winners. In 1980 Schmidt and Carlton are kind of obvious. I probably would not include anyone else. Rose, Tug McGraw, and Greg Luzinski probably have the best cases. Tug had 4.6 WAR that year which is a huge amount for a reliever (92 IP). Luzinski had his best years prior to that and then his career value was bolstered on other teams, so his case is not as good as Howard's but it is also not that far behind.

[zambonir]

Yeah, I don't think the loosening of the policy should necessarily be retroactive.

Though if Howard's number is retired that means Rollins, Utley, and Hamels should all be retired as well.

Aren't their numbers all functionally retired already anyway?

[andyb]

Probably meant a great deal to Dick Allen to have the number actually retired while he was still alive. It is not like the Phillies are the Yankees with 20 different retired numbers. A player's number should be retired when they are still young enough to be recognized. Took way too long for Allen and Ashburn. Your career is either good enough or it isn't. With Ashburn they clung to the HOF criteria. With Allen they removed that (and really lowered the bar with Halladay).

Halladay is really more the problem here than the HOF policy change. Players that play most of their career with the team that are great players should be considered. Halladay lowered the bar to great players who had a couple of great years with the team, not most of their career.

[zambonir]

The question with Halladay is was he gonna be a surefire, first-ballot HOFer had he lived? Probably, though it might have been closer. That made it easy, if maybe still not necessary, for the Phillies to retire his number. Clearly sentiment plays a part, and I don't even mean his death. Halladay really embraced being a Phillie and Middleton probably wanted it to happen. They really shouldn't have changed the five-year rule, but they did.

If only we could expect to have this debate about such players as Wheeler and JT. Even Harper is not yet a sure thing (for number retirement). Heck I'm not sure Nola is even a slam-dunk for the Wall.

[BostonRoss]

If you die young, you’re more likely to be honored (often by having stuff named after you).

[zambonir]

I had actually misremembered that they gave him an exemption. The rules already change the timetable for any player, but it was less than 6 months for 2018 (he died in late 2017) and then he was going to be eligible anyway in 2019.

Rule 3(D) states: “In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.”

[Lucky_Beagle]

To me for a player to be considered for having his number retired he should meet the question.....Is he thought of an a Phillie by most people. IF you went out and took a poll of most people who followed the entire career of a player what team would they think of when they think of the player.
I do not believe most people would think of Halladay as a Phillie as compared to a Blue Jay.
Rolen- would most consider him a Phillie or a Cardinal?

I think the number of years spent with one team compared to another is a major factor, however not the only factor. If someone spent 15 years in the majors and spent his first 8 with one team and the last 6 or 7 with another team yet had some of his biggest seasons with that team I could see him being considered as mostly being remember as a player on that team.

[andyb]

Not sure I would be that strict. Frank Robinson for instance had significant careers with the Reds and Orioles. Bryce Harper might deserve to be retired by both the Nats and the Phillies (hopefully!). I just think they need a significant part of their career with the Phillies. Does not need to be half, but it really should have to be at least 4 or 5 good years where the team also had accomplishments.

Rolen one could argue had his most significant years as a Cardinal even if more of his better seasons were with the Phillies.

[Philsmania]

I think the number of years spent with one team compared to another is a major factor, however not the only factor. If someone spent 15 years in the majors and spent his first 8 with one team and the last 6 or 7 with another team yet had some of his biggest seasons with that team I could see him being considered as mostly being remember as a player on that team.

Schilling and Rolen fall in the latter category. In the case of both, their largest body of work was in Philadelphia. But, it is the Hall of FAME and their most momentous, memorable and FAMEous (deliberate mispelling) work came after Philadelphia. Enough has been said about Schilling. In the case of Rolen, he had four All-Star appearances as a Cardinal (just one with the Phillies) and played in three postseasons with the Cardinals (none with the Phillies). He did win one more GG with the Phillies than with the Cardinals and his lone SS came the year he got traded (2/3 of that season in Philadelphia). He earned more fame in St. Louis, I would say even though he arguably did more in Philadelphia.

[bkox]

Rolen spent 6 2/3 seasons in Philly and 5 1/3 in StL. The slash lines are almost indentical. OPS 2 points apart. 39 less HRs in STL but in 180 less games.

[andyb]

Rolen could be that rare player that falls through the cracks on getting his number retired because he may not have done enough for either team. He might have a better Hall of Fame chance than a retired number chance.

[zambonir]

LB's argument was only about retiring numbers though. As far as that goes, clearly the bottom line is that if the team wants to do it and the player wants to show up, it can happen. We're only linking the retirement number issue with the HoF issue because of the Phillies unofficial, but now seemingly doomed, policy doing so.

I suspect the Cardinals will very happily and eagerly retire Rolen's number, certainly if he does get to Cooperstown. The fans already voted him into the team HoF in 2019.

[bkox]

Rollins has 19 votes in the known votes so far. 1 more guarantees him another year on the ballot

[andyb]

Stark on Rollins. He seems pretty negative on his chances. Utley with a better shot but even there I am skeptical.

Jimmy Rollins' Hall of Fame case: Is there a place in Cooperstown for Rollins...

[bkox]

Really interesting info from that article.. in history there have been 25 teams that went to back to back world series and won at least one.

If Rollins or Utley dont make it.. Those 2008-9 Phillies will be the only one of those 25 teams that dont have a Hall of Famer

[andyb]

I think he made a mistake. Pedro Martinez was on the 2009 team.

[bkox]

Pedro Martinez

Just tweeted that at Stark and Gelb who tweeted about it. Good catch