Hall of Fame Discussion 2022 and Beyond

[BostonRoss]

I think the Hall of Fame is more for the fans than for the players. That said, neither group is homogeneous in their views, or even close.

[bkox]

Curt Schilling Baseball Hall of Fame team preference? Diamondbacks over...

[Philsmania]

While Schilling's Philadelphia body of work is larger, his Phoenix and Boston bodies of work were more momentous.

Having said that, like Halladay and Mussina, he should go in (if he does) with a blank cap.

And, I don't think the Philles should retire #38 for him. And while Rolen should be on the Phillies WOF, the Phillies should not retire #17 for him.

[bkox]

And, I don't think the Philles should retire #38 for him.

Schil hasnt been back for a WOF ceremony since he was inducted. I dont see the Phillies honoring him any further.

[zambonir]

I suppose the likely change to the Phillies' policy of only retiring the numbers of Hall of Famers also opens the door to not automatically doing it. I still don't think a living Roy Halladay's would have merited it, though it's funny how he and Schill are basically opposites - the Phillies were basically Schill's Blue Jays and Halladay's Red Sox.

So Curt is now saying he would accept induction?

They still need to put Rolen on the freaking Wall of Fame first! Who is even still on the organization nursing that grudge?

[California_Dreamin]

Rolen...WOF...yes. HOF...maybe. Retired number...not a chance. In my lifetime he was only the 3rd best Phillies third baseman they had, behind Schmidt and Allen. Certainly he was a better glove than Allen but was not close offensively and never carried a team like Allen or Schmidt could.

As for Schilling, agree he should go in with no name on his hat. He first became a household name with the '93 Phillies and without his Phillie credentials he never would have made his way to Arizona and as for Boston, schillingfan knows how close he came to returning to Philly as a free agent. If Wade was half the GM that Epstein was it would have happened and he may well have become a part of that Rollins-Utley-Howard-Hamels group that came up in the mid 2000's.

[zambonir]

Are there any Phillies in the HoF who haven't had their number retired?

Either way, it's just not going to be as big deal going forward. IMO there's no way they don't retire Howard, Rollins, Utley and Hamels, with or without the Hall. And they will have to start doing 2 at a time for the Wall around that era too (because I still see Chooch and Vic and Lidge going on there too).

I wonder what happened with the Phillies and Jamie Moyer?

[bkox]

Are there any Phillies in the HoF who haven't had their number retired?

Jim Thome.

And his Phillies career was similar to Doc's. 2 great years and 2 mediocre/bad/injured ones

[zambonir]

and no postseason

I think players who don't actually go into the Hall as Phillies make it pretty easy for the team to leave them out. I'm sure Rolen won't. Schill has said his piece. Halladay, they were obviously all on the same page.

[bkox]

And they will have to start doing 2 at a time for the Wall around that era too (because I still see Chooch and Vic and Lidge going on there too).

i dont think they need to do 2 at a time. Rolen and 7 more from the 2008 era (Utley, Howard, Rollins, Hamels, Lidge, Chooch, and Victorino)? But like nothing after that. Does Cliff Lee get in? And what about all time Phillies saves leader Jonathon Paplebon?

But after that... is there anyone else from the last 10 years that would deserve the honor? Harper's contract still runs another 10 years. Nola could still be pitching, Wheeler and Neris and Realmuto recently retired most likely.. And besides Harper, im not sure those other 4 have done enough for WOF yet.. but obviously could in the next few years.

[zambonir]

I think Cliff probably gets on the Wall. And I would personally argue for Werth.

I just don't know that there's any reason to stagger out a bunch of players who accomplished so much together at the same time if they are eligible. Rollins, Howard and Utley actually all officially retired the same year (despite the HoF not seeing it that way), why not just do them all together?

And if they don't do Rolen this year they might not for a decade (if it's still one at time).

Pap is actually not eligible. They lowered it from five to four years to accomodate Thome and Halladay but he only had three.

[bkox]

I have no problems with them doing them together. Seeing Utley, Howard and Rollins on the same weekend would be awesome...

But what im saying is if they truncate down to 5-7 years.. they may have problems finding worthy inductees for a while. Is there anyone left from the older teams? Bake McBride maybe? pinch hitter extrordinare Greg Gross? Terry Mulholland?

I wouldnt mind seeing Larry Andersen get on the WOF for his broadcasting work for so many years.

Also to add.. the Phillies dont seem to have an issue with dragging it out.. after all Manny Trillio was 2021's inductee

[zambonir]

Yeah I don't think they will ever run out of guys. Even if it gets to the point where they have to pick between Mickey Morandini and Freddy Galvis.

This also covered a bunch of non-playing candidates, some more convincing than others (to say the least).

https://thatballsouttahere.com/2021/08/08/phillies-5-unexpected-deserving-wall-fame-candidates/

[andyb]

Are there any Phillies in the HoF who haven't had their number retired?

Beyond Thome there have to be lots of players at the beginning or end of their career. The Wheeze kids had Joe Morgan and Tony Perez (and Rose also of course). Only 1 Philly year for Morgan and Perez, but it was a good one (World Series loss).

[zambonir]

Well, yeah, the free agency era changes the situation considerably. Thome and Halladay really the first guys to put it to the test. Rose would presumably have gotten it were he in, or had the Phillies put him on the Wall and then his ban finally ended (now I think it's safe to say neither thing will happen in his lifetime). Perez and Morgan no.

Rolen is different (and different from Schilling too). But also impossible to separate out the seeming continued chill between him and the organization and the fact that you can just argue that he's a Cardinal first.

We know these conversations are going on. They're not going to wait for Rollins' candidacy to play out over the next several years IMO, they'll ultimately retire him (don't forget he also still works for the team) and Chase. But what about Howard? No less of giant, and star, but a short run.

[bkox]

But what about Howard? No less of giant, and star, but a short run.

Howard's numbers are similar to Dick Allen's Phillies numebrs. A bit lower in the slash line but higher in HRs/RBIs. Howard holds the club record in single season HRs. And has 3 of the top 10 RBI seasons. (Surprisingly Schmidt has 0). I think he deserves to get his number retired. Especially since his Achilles tear may have been due to Phillies Drs mismanagement

[zambonir]

I don't really remember what the medical staff may or may not have done at this point. I also don't know that the injury really did anything other than accelerate a decline that was already happening in a player with a limited skill set (even though the skills he did excel at were stratospheric for a time).

But this is exactly why the HoF rule needs to go - you can make the case that what Ryan Howard did for the Phillies, tangibly and intangibly, makes him worthy of a retired number even as he has almost no Hall of Fame case. The context of his Phillies career also includes him being blocked by Thome and being under contract for way too long - both the team's fault, not his, if still not something that matters to HoF voters. The fact that he finished his MLB career with the Phillies was not exactly on purpose (i.e. the team would have been happy to trade him and he did sign with the Rockies in 2017) but still counts for something too, IMO. We may never see that again.

[xogfog]

Agree with you, while the injury robbed him a bit, pitchers were already starting to throw him breaking balls almost exclusively and he never was able to adjust well enough to improve. What really cost him was the time he lost blocked by Thome.

[phillychuck]

And the shift cost him more than most players, too.

[Philsmania]

I think Howard was blocked by Thome for really just a half a season (early 2005, before Thome got hurt). Prior to then, his development projection was probably appropriate (three full minor league seasons).

Yeah, the shift--which became far more common as his career went on--was a killer for him. You can look at it two ways. Yes, he should have adjusted and tried to start hitting some singles through that big hole but, at the same time, he was slugger and not a singles guy.