Hall of Fame Discussion 2022 and Beyond

[julio]

Off with his head!

[andyb]

Rollins has the MVP amd was the leader of those teams, but a WAR of 47.5 does not cut it in my view.

But doesn't Chase with a WAR of 64.5 merit it? Defense counts and his peak stats were much better than Rollins. Chase has a good case. Jimmy is a little weak. Abreu was clearly underrated (OBP is really important) and his 60.2 WAR is close obviously, but took more years than Chase - so his peak value was less. Kirby Puckett got points for a shorter career too. He had 51.2 WAR in 12 years while Chase's peak 10 years was almost 60 WAR alone.

[zambonir]

Yeah the case for Chase - at least for Phillies phans/partisans - is partly based on the fact that it's not his fault his career was as short as it was on the front end, even if you can't really reward him for that either.

I reckon there are some Mets-leaning voters who will never support him!

[Philsmania]

It is the Hall of Fame and Abreu, though a fine player, never really achieved fame. Never played in a WS, never finished top ten in the MVP. I always thought Rolen was content with being a second fiddle who bristled at being "the guy" in Philadelphia but thrived being paired with Pujols in St. Louis who was the bigger star and later Votto in Cincinnati. Abreu was even more of a complementary player--though an outstanding complementary player--but not headline guy.

Rollins and Utley have the opposite problems. Utley is strong in the modern stats and weak in the "counting" stats. Rollins is strong in the "counting" status and weak in the modern stats (though, as a SS, you have to look at his defense, too).

[andyb]

WAR is a counting stat too though. Utley is strong in that one because it includes defense.

Abreu probably falls below the assumed HOF line and yes, lack of WS appearances is a tie-breaker. 60 WAR is borderline without that (and his long career meant his WAR/year was a bit lower too).

[Philsmania]

Yeah the case for Chase - at least for Phillies phans/partisans - is partly based on the fact that it's not his fault his career was as short as it was on the front end, even if you can't really reward him for that either.

If only the Phillies didn't sign David Bell and kept Polanco at 3B from 2002-12. The Phillies would probably win the Rolen trade, perhaps having Polanco in 2005 or 2006 would have put them over the top and into the Postseason (those were probably his two best years), Polanco would have been a Phillies WOFer and, yes, Utley's career and tenure as the Phillies' starting 2Bman would have started in 2004 (heck, maybe even in 2003). Utley actually spent parts of three years in AAA (one of them being 2002 when they tried converting him to a 3Bman with Rolen's Phillies days looking numbered).

[zambonir]

It's the Hall of Fame but fame is not one of the criteria. It is thing that follows naturally from myriad achievements. But it's ultimately about being one of the best players. Rolen was an easier call due to the lack of competition at his position (including OF being seen as one position in some cases).

When you get to "contributions to the team(s) on which the player played" it's definitely harder if you never played on a great team(s).

[BostonRoss]

I do think that Abreu is borderline. It's true he didn't achieve "fame," but he probably would if he played today when his skills would be more appreciated.

I am not one of those who says "if X is in the Hall of Fame and Y is better, Y should go in, too." But there are an awful lot of right fielders worse than him in the Hall. There are 28 of them by my count, and exactly half of them had more WAR than Abreu. He's 20th among right fielders in WAR; of the 19 ahead of him, 14 are in the Hall, 1 is still active and will go in (Mookie Betts), and two are tainted (Shoeless Joe and Gary Sheffield). So among eligible non-PED RFs, only Dwight Evans (who I think will get in eventually) and Reggie Smith are not in.

[jimbomill]

More likely it is someone who either doesn't think anyone should get in automatically on the first ballot

That tidbit is not in the Voting Guidelines. To my thinking, any voter who does that has malintent. I wonder if that voter voted for any other first timer on the ballot. If he/she did, that's hypocrisy.

At least, this faux pas by that voter gives us something to talk about. And by faux pas, I mean not having Ichiro at the top of your list for this set of candidates is a misstep.

[zambonir]

It's not a guideline but we don't know if that's the reason either, and the voter didn't have to do it with that level of specificity. He merely had to believe that 10 guys who have been eligible longer were more deserving of his vote at this point in time. There's also no rule against just saying, "that guy doesn't need my vote." Clearly this is part of the voting process every year, just in a less noticeable/notable way.

You're either in the Hall or you're not, they don't keep score.

I do agree the votes shouldn't be anonymous.

It's also no less possible that someone just forgot or made a mistake.

I

[bkox]

Ichiro Suzuki invites lone writer who left him off HOF ballot to have 'drink...

[Philsmania]

I remember years ago Bill Conlin explaining why he was the lone voter who did not vote for Nolan Ryan on the first ballot and it actually made sense. It was Ryan coughing up that three run lead to the Phillies in the 1980 NLCS and coming up short in arguably the biggest game of his career.

[phillychuck]

How does that make sense? There are dozens of hall-of-famers who have had lousy games in key moments. Conlin was a curmudgeonly stain on the Philadelphia sports community for years, and this is one of a long line of examples.

[zambonir]

Six people didn't vote for Ryan.

I guess if Conlin was still alive (and hadn't lost his privileges which he presumably would have) he could have not voted for Wagner due to the way he pitched in key pennant races both for and against the Phillies.

[BostonRoss]

Babe Ruth got thrown out stealing to end a World Series. I’m guessing that wasn’t the reason he wasn’t unanimous.

[zambonir]

No it was probably the integrity clause.

[jimbomill]

Conlin was a curmudgeonly stain on the Philadelphia sports community for years, and this is one of a long line of examples.

I do not deem to have the wisdom to debate that.