Hall of Fame Discussion 2022 and Beyond

[bkox]

Ichiro, Sabathia and Billy Wagner have been elected to the HOF

Ichiro was one vote shy of unanimous

[bkox]

Utley went from 28.8 percent support on his first ballot in 2024 to 39.8 percent this year.

Rollins and Abreu also increased but still under 20%

[el-pietro]

Chase is up to 39.8% from 28.8%. Good progress in his second year.

[el-pietro]

Tulowitzki being one and done with just 4 votes is shocking to me. I don't think I ever thought he'd get in (I didn't spend much time thinking about him at all) but his record seems more like the kind of guy who hangs around the full ten years.
Baseball Ref says he had 5+ WAR 6 times. Top 5 finish in MBP twice as well as an 8th place finish. Rookie of the year runner up.
5 time all star, two time gold glove winner.
And he was pretty famous.
Did he suffer a penalty for playing in Colorado?

[zambonir]

I wonder if the abrupt and fairly poor end to his career just left a lot of voters forgetting how good he was. He was only 30 when he got trade to Toronto, was still okay in 2016 and then was basically done from 2017 to 2019 (no games in '2018, just a few in '19).

Maybe a few people discounted his offense because of Colorado but also the team has no constituency among baseball writers nationally or regionally (like, I doubt a bunch of guys who cover the Dodgers give them much love).

[dcsman]

Whoever left him off should have his HOF voting credentials revoked.

[el-pietro]

That's interesting. I've heard writers talk about how hard it can be to get a vote for the regular awards if you are from the New York chapter as only two writers per city (or team I assume) can vote for each award. I assume the same is true to a lesser extent in LA, Chicago and Philly.
Does this mean that the Yankees players are getting in to the HoF at a disproportionate rate because New York has so many voters (in addition to the fame of being a Yankee).
Would CC have gotten in if he'd stayed a Brewer even if his career/achievements were identical?

[zambonir]

I dunno but I would think Wagner benefitted from adding so many other markets (and playoff teams) to his resume, even though we weren't one of them and neither were the '07 or '08 Mets

[jimbomill]

Whoever left him off should have his HOF voting credentials revoked

I wonder if the voter who omitted Ichiro has a Yankee connection and wanted to preserve Mariano's status as the only HOF unanimous pick?

[zambonir]

I seriously doubt that. You'd have no respect as an objective baseball writer if that was the case. More likely it is someone who either doesn't think anyone should get in automatically on the first ballot (because so many other no-brainers didn't either) or just figured Ichiro didn't need the vote and made 10 different choices. We still don't know who didn't vote for Jeter either. More than one person didn't vote for Cal Ripken Jr.

[BostonRoss]

Yeah, everyone else in the Hall of Fame besides Rivera was left off someone's ballot. If we started excluding voters, we wouldn't have many left.

[zambonir]

"We don't agree with how you voted" is certainly not a criteria for voting.

[BostonRoss]

There may have been a time when Yankees were getting into the Hall at a disproportionate rate, but if so that was long ago. Jeter and Rivera are the only ones from their most recent glory years who got in; no one else has gotten close. (2009 was an isolated win.) Mattingly hasn't gotten close, either. Gossage barely got in on his last ballot, if I recall correctly.

The Veterans Committees are another matter since they are so small and have been responsible for the most questionable choices over the years. But other than perhaps Phil Rizzuto, those questionable choices haven't been Yankees.

[Philsmania]

Utley went from 28.8 percent support on his first ballot in 2024 to 39.8 percent this year.

Rollins and Abreu also increased but still under 20%

Utley appears to be on the path to enshrinement by regular ballot. I suspect Rollins's best chance will be the permutation of the Veterans Committee that covers his era.

[xogfog]

I think unanimous picks are going to be a thing of the past until the voting process changes. Nowadays some voters may leave off an obvious choice knowing they will easily get in in order to include another player he thinks should remain on the ballot.

[andyb]

Well there has only been one unanimous pick so it is not like it is really a thing of the past. For way too long there was an attitude that since Babe Ruth and Walter Johnson were not unanimous nobody should be.

When you have 400+ voters there will always be outliers. I guess one could look at Ichiro's WAR of only 60 and give him zero credit for the Japanese time taking away from his MLB stats and conclude that Chase Utley was better (64 vs 60 bWAR). And if more than half the voters don't vote for Chase then of course Ichiro should not be in or unanimous.

It is not a case I would make, but it is at least defensible in some circles. I would hope there is a mechanism that if a voter went outside accepted norms for 3 or 5 years in a row there might be a review process for them to lose their vote. Maybe we should retire voters after 15-20 years so we keep getting younger electors. The HOF voting is much better than it used to be though will probably never be perfect.

[BostonRoss]

Babe Ruth and Walter Johnson were elected the first time there was voting, and so they were up against everyone who had ever played to that point. But it is hard to understand why some people didn't vote for the likes of Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, etc.

I would say that the BBWAA have done a very good job (putting aside the strong opinions on both sides for the PED guys). A few marginal guys have gotten in, but if several hundred mostly knowledgeable people voted them in, I have no problem. I agree that it has gotten better; I think some of the old timers had personal biases for and against certain candidates.

[andyb]

The bigger problem is the various veteran (now era) elections. Usually about 12 people voting and many are not analytic thinkers. Dick Allen was justified of course, but a bunch of them have not been. Harold Baines?

[zambonir]

Right, the guy who didn't vote for Jeter or the guy who didn't vote for Ichiro bothers me less than the guys who still overrate counting/team-dependent stats.

[VoteForKalas]

This will likely not make me popular, but I'd argue that none of Abreu, Utley or Rollins are HOFers.

I'd also argue Abreu has better stats than Utley, but the people voting for Utley are clearly seeing things I don't. Rollins has the MVP amd was the leader of those teams, but a WAR of 47.5 does not cut it in my view.