GDT 10/20/23 Philadelphia Phillies (Sánchez, C) @ Arizona Diamondbacks (Mantiply)

[zambonir]

I am less concerned that they have burned up the bullpen than I am that there as many as three relievers I wouldn't want to be available in a tight game ever again. Kimbrel is just not the guy he was in the first half (which we all saw happening), to me Soto was already the last arm in the pen (I would have given his spot to Kerkering if they'd wanted Covey as a middle reliever) and you can't use Kerkering again until he gets a low-leverage spot to reset.

But in the short-term, you are not saving these guys for anything, and there's a day off tomorrow. Hoffman and Alvarado will pitch today if they have to (Hoffman is probably more of a last out of the inning match-up move but Alvarado has thrown fewer pitches over the last two days than Hoffman did just yesterday). Seranthony and Strahm will be available. Otherwise, it might be a moment to challenge Lorenzen to step up for an inning. And Ranger will definitely be in the pen (and if not tonight, don't be surprised if history repeats and he comes out for the save in Game 6 if it's the clincher).

Let's just hope we're not watching Wheeler lose the game in the seventh inning because Thomson stayed with him too long.

All that really matters in the meantime is who wins the starting pitcher battle. If Wheeler isn't the better one the bullpen issues probably won't matter.

[zambonir]

A bit of detail from Gelb.

A greater onus fell to the high-leverage relievers when the Phillies decided that neither Taijuan Walker nor Michael Lorenzen would factor into Game 4 unless it went to extra innings. (Lorenzen, relegated to mop-up duty, would have pitched the ninth if the Phillies had tied or went ahead; there was no one else available.) Walker was erratic in a simulated game earlier in the week so the Phillies decided to start Sánchez.

Phillies' bullpen buckles then breaks in Game 4, as the pitching questions mount

[rpmcmurphy]

Thomson was being largely hailed as a genius after his “strategy” lucked out in the first Atlanta game. Turns out that pulling a starter in the 3rd or 4th inning, who is pitching effectively, is not such a great move after all. Who knew? And his mishandling of Kerkering, who had only pitched in a total of 6 big league games, and had not pitched back to back all year, and was shelled the night before— was insane. He took a great young pitching prospect and completely screwed with his head. Unbelievable. Maybe it’s a good thing that Andrew Painter won’t be back for a couple of years. Hopefully Thompson will be gone by then. He caught lightning in a bottle with last year’s team. Now he’s being exposed.

[zambonir]

But last night the starter wasn't pitching effectively - wasn't even a starter really - and both teams were running bullpen games.

The managers job is to put guys in a position to succeed and he did not always do that last night but guys like Soto and Kimbrel have to perform. At no point in last night's game did it feel like he had a better option than any of the ones he used (still not buying the idea that Walker should have entered especially now that we know he threw poorly in his sim game, though I still question how they had him lined up to pitch for the last three weeks - Sanchez was always available out of the pen, he wasn't - and then changed course).

I still think they are going to be fine but if a serious post-mortem is required it is going to fall on the front office as much as as if not more than Thomson. For one thing, he and Cotham don't make these decisions (about pulling the starter early and who to even start in a game like last night) on their own. And Kerkering shouldn't be on the roster if he can't be trusted in bigger spots, he could just as easily be Marte at the moment. Nor should Lorenzen if he's merely a mop-up emergency guy; they could have put Covey back on. Kimbrel looks like the guy the Dodgers didn't put on their playoff roster and we've been reminded repeatedly why an ideal game is one in which Soto doesn't pitch (it only works if the guy after him gets the outs).

If Kerkering's head has been messed with it's not much of a head. He'll be fine. It's part of the job.

[andyb]

Thomson is a horrible manager. For once in my life I want a Phillies manager who is a master tactician.

He actually had Alvarado lined up for the heart of their lineup. Kimbrel was getting the bottom of the lineup in the 8th.

i don't fault Thomson last night. He was managing every inning to win. The alternative would have been to have Walker or Lorenzen try to come in for 2 in the 4th inning and I think everyone on this board would be scared of that. I do wonder if they should have started Walker because he is not used to relieving like Sanchez is. Getting 5-6 innings out of the two of them would have left the team in better shape for tonight.

[zambonir]

He actually had Alvarado lined up for the heart of their lineup. Kimbrel was getting the bottom of the lineup in the 8th.

Well, he said they were hoping not to pitch Alvarado at all, though that was obviously not going to be an option at that point. But then Alvarado wasn't even ready to pitch. Kimbrel faced six batters, including hitting the guy they were saving Alvarado for. There was just no right path last night. If Thomson had used Kimbrel when he used Kerkering either it would have been the same or worse or Kerkering would have had to pitch in the 8th. If he'd used Lorenzen instead of Kimbrel he might have looked like a genius or an idiot but I don't any of us would have praised at in the moment.

[Austinfan]

Sometimes it's the players. Kimbrel pitched scared and it burned them. Kerkering pitched scared (kept throwing a good slider two feet off the plate instead of daring hitters to hit it), and so on. Now maybe this is also a FO issue, 98 MPH is fine, but without swagger and movement, it's also a big hit waiting to happen. Mabye they should tone down the emphasis on velocity and focus more on movement and command (i.e. 95 with command is better than 98-100 without it).

[Lucky_Beagle]

Wby is it always the pitcher who is blamed... throwing sweeper 2 feet outside instead of fastball... when does the catcher take some blame for pitch selection
Who gave up a hit on a 0-2 count off an offside pitch when the batter had been late on a fastball. why speed the bat up? Even Darling commented on it during the gAme.

[VoteForKalas]

Exactly, which is why I do fault Rob for part of last night. The players obviously own the other part for their sloppy play, poor plate discipline and pitching issues.

To have one of your big FA signings not play at all in the postseason is strange. One wonders if Walker is injured or why Rob apparently does not trust him.

[zambonir]

It's strange because they gave him such a big contract but it's not that strange that your #4 starter only barely factors into the playoffs, and your #5 and 6 almost not at all. Last year it was Thor, Gibson, Falter, Eflin this year it's Walker, Sanchez, Lorenzen. It's just unfortunate Sanchez legitimately looked like a very good starting pitcher and couldn't deliver. And also that Lorenzen should be just as capable as Eflin of relieving if not more so, but apparently isn't.

Whatever the real reason it's obviously true they don't like Walker in these playoffs. Not starting, not relieving. The lack of "trust" comes from the results and the way he looks in his workouts and the numbers I'm sure. But we may yet found out one way or another whether he should be used.

[bkox]

Umpire Mike Muchlinski (ranked 49 of 92) missed 10 calls in #NLCS game 4 #Diamondbacks #Phillies .

He had a correct call rate of 93.0%, slightly higher than league average (92.5%).

Of the 10 calls, 7 hurt the Phillies. pic.twitter.com/kKAPKIxG7L

— Umpire Auditor ( @UmpireAuditor ) October 21, 2023

[andyb]

One wonders if Walker is injured or why Rob apparently does not trust him.

Well it is perfectly natural for a guy to not be perfect in his bullpen after not pitching for a month. My fault with Rob here is that he really did not use opportunities to get more pitchers in the game when he had to. Walker never relieving does not mean he can't relieve. Just let him start an inning and also don't let him throw too many games (which is really not an issue when we overuse the back end of the bullpen). We gave Dominguez and Kerkering (along with Lorenzen) innings in that 10-2 win over the Braves when we were up 8-2 after 6. If Walker started to give up a 6 (soon to be 8) run lead in that game they could have put in the other guys. They lost a huge opportunity to get him acclimated to the postseason there.

[Philsmania]

One wonders if Walker is injured or why Rob apparently does not trust him.

Well it is perfectly natural for a guy to not be perfect in his bullpen after not pitching for a month. My fault with Rob here is that he really did not use opportunities to get more pitchers in the game when he had to. Walker never relieving does not mean he can't relieve. Just let him start an inning and also don't let him throw too many games (which is really not an issue when we overuse the back end of the bullpen). We gave Dominguez and Kerkering (along with Lorenzen) innings in that 10-2 win over the Braves when we were up 8-2 after 6. If Walker started to give up a 6 (soon to be 8) run lead in that game they could have put in the other guys. They lost a huge opportunity to get him acclimated to the postseason there.

Seriously. Using Kerkering was a leap of faith. Why not take a similar leap with Lorenzen and Walker.

[schillingfan]

I can now confess I turned off th television when Kimberly gave up the home run. I still have not read this thread. Mitch Williams and the Carter home run have scarred me for live and I could bear to watch the Phillies lose the game, even though it was sti. L tied.

I let out such an agonizing scream that my Chessie dog picked up toys in her mouth and started running in citrcles and my Golden blamed the Chessie and started scolding her for upsetting me.