2023 Phils Spring Training News and Discussion

[allentown]

I don't get the interest in Pache. He can't hit. The Phillies have a ton of minor league CFs who are plus fielders and may never learn to hit. Most of them never will hit well enough to be MLB players. If we crave that sort of D, it would have been simple to just bring up one of those guys. Interestingly, on the minor league thread today, Sullivan gets a call-out as a guy who has a chance as a reliever. Pache is a guy without a chance. I don't think we got him cheap.

RHP Billy Sullivan - 23 years old - RHP - Birthdate : 4/16/99 - signed as an un-drafted free agent - 6/16/20 - University of Delaware - He delivers pitches with a quirky motion and arm angle which looks painful to me but it works for him - it certainly hides the baseball from hitters, tucks his arm inwards towards his body before bringing arm back and exploding forwards with thrust. Is a high velocity reliever - the stuff certainly can play, it earned him a non roster invitation to big league spring camp, harnessing of control/command is a continuing development. The speed gun : fastball (sits in a range of 94 to 96 mph - max 99) and slider (77 to 80 mph). What’s next - Update 3/29 - was traded to the Oakland Athletics

[Austinfan]

We have plenty of RH RPs who throw 95+ in AA and AAA ball.

Pache is a gamble, but wRC+ 73 against LH, wRC+ of 4 against RH.
So it wouldn't take too much to make him into a decent platoon CF if they don't think Marsh will ever learn to hit LH pitching.

Even as just a defensive replacement, he's probably as valuable as a AA RP who might make it to the back of the pen some day. Given how bad Schwarber and Castellanos are in the field, being able to bring him in with a lead may have some real value.

[allentown]

As I said, we are also awash with plus defensive CFs. Over the years, we've had plus defensive CFs in the minors, who never amounted to anything, because they couldn't hit. Most were of slight build, which Pache isn't, but his MLB OPS is terrible.

The two pluses for keeping Sullivan: he could spend the whole year and more in the minors, this is only his 3rd professional season and he has all his options. He has value -- he's wild but he gets a ton of Ks at AA. And, over the next few years we will need to cycle a lot of relievers through Philly.

[zambonir]

I think Hoskins' injury and the fact that Hall's roster spot is now guaranteed (and not DH) made them want a true back-up CF even more than they did two weeks ago. Sosa's gonna play more 3B, and Castellanos and Schwarber might DH more. It's possible Pache won't be any better than Muzziotti or Rojas might have been, but they can afford to find out while not messing with the development of those two guys. I also think he'll probably get to AAA if they decide it isn't working.

And while, granted, the Phillies have already been down this road with Mark Appel, the chance to buy a lottery ticket on a prospect who's already been ranked higher than any prospect your own system has produced in nearly 10 years is also not nothing, given that he's still young. If we're even a little bit excited about 30 year-old guy who put up a .644 OPS last year and a .541 OPS in 2021 because he just blew up spring training (Cave), a 23 year-old who just hit .300 and is almost guaranteed to be a plus player without hitting (if used correctly) is worth a look.

[Austinfan]

Agreed. Given how much COVID messed with player development, let's not screw up two young OFs with the potential to start down the road by rushing them to the majors to be late inning defensive replacements. Rojas and Muzzioti have far more upside than Sullivan, so if Pache merely allows them to stay in the minors for a full season, that may have a lot of value down the road.

[flyers19rw]

Pache is here because Marsh can’t hit enough to handle the position. IMO, they gave up a good prospect, one that they could use now, to get Marsh. Maybe O’Hoppe will never be a major league catcher but his bat will eventually play in the majors. A right handed first baseman?

[LoneStarPhan]

Sorry to see a Blue Hen leaving the Phillies.

DD adds another player who not all that lone ago was a very high prospect but who's star has dimmed. Either Pache or Sullivan might go on to have a decent ML career but the more probably outcome is that neither does. For now, Pache gives the Phillies a strong defensive centerfielder. We will see if he can hit well enough to stick around long term.

Tomorrow, spring training news ends and we start playing games that count. Every game is important. Rangers are an improved team looking to make the post season.

On sale starting opening day in Texas, the 2 foot burger.

[zambonir]

Pache is here because Marsh can’t hit enough to handle the position. IMO, they gave up a good prospect, one that they could use now, to get Marsh. Maybe O’Hoppe will never be a major league catcher but his bat will eventually play in the majors. A right handed first baseman?

I think it's just the opposite actually - this is a vote of confidence in Marsh, or at least in the Phillies' willingness to see how he does. If Pache doesn't hit he will not get all the starts against LHP (and Guthrie and Sosa weren't going to either, but they would have hit more. But Pache is a better CF than either of them).

[julio]

Pache is here because Marsh can’t hit enough to handle the position. IMO, they gave up a good prospect, one that they could use now, to get Marsh. Maybe O’Hoppe will never be a major league catcher but his bat will eventually play in the majors. A right handed first baseman?

I don't know that I agree with your assessment of Brandon Marsh, or of the trade. That said, Logan O'Hoppe has made the Angels' Opening Day roster - and the starting catcher on Opening Day.

Logan O’Hoppe to be youngest Angels catcher to start on opening day

[Austinfan]

Problem for the Phillies is they're competing in 2023, not 2025.

Muzzioti and Ortiz are in AAA, Rojas, Wilson and De La Cruz in AA, Crawford, Boyd and Fergus could run an OF track meet for Clearwater this season with Ricones providing power.

In 2025 we could have 2 or 3 prospects pushing to start in the OF.
But the next two years, Marsh/Pache hold down the fort until the kids start arriving.

[Aquapong]

Mmm 2 foot burger.

I wonder if Fangraphs has ever proven the value of a defensive replacement outfielder. I would think the ball is more likely to find a defensive replacement infielder. We talk a lot about defensive replacements, but how often do they actually make a difference in the game?

[gmwannabe]

my goodness. No disrespect to Marsh (still hate the trade). this could end up ranking in the top five of all time worst trades for the Phillies. best of luck to the kid.
gm

[Jazzhead]

My understanding is that Pache has no options left, and will as a practical matter need to stay on the team, displacing Guthrie (who I feel sorry for - his dream was so close yet so far).

I hope the Phils use Pache as part of a strict righty-lefty platoon with Marsh so at least he gets some playing time. He really needs reps to polish his hit tool, although a view of his 2022 defensive highlights confirms he's elite with the glove.

The roster as it's come together is intriguing for its versatility, with the Phils able to trot out, as the situation warrants, stellar defense, game-changing power and even a good bit of speed. I've got my tix to the home opener and am chomping at the bit.

[julio]

Yeah, I'm rooting for Logan to have a good season and career. He was a favorite of mine from draft day onward. (That place is currently held by Anthony Quirion, for no good analytical reason, but because he really stuck out for me this past winter in his Adelaide season. He's older than I would like, but...)

I don't hate the trade. It kind of depends of what we actually get with Marsh; the reality is that O'Hoppe would not be starting today for the Phillies, and likely would not even be on the active roster — not because of anything he did (or failed to do), but because of the presence of JT Realmuto.

Also, the Phils went to Game 6 of the World Series in 2022, and the Marsh-O'Hoppe trade helped us get there.

[allentown]

Well, there is the famous post-season non-sub for Luzinski.

[fish]

I don't get the interest in Pache. He can't hit.

I didn't think Pache would hit enough to merit his prospect rankings in years past...but his career progression showed improvement in the minors as he rose through the ranks... to the point that his numbers show that he can hit. He hasn't in the big leagues of course, but it's worth the game for a guy as physically gifted as he is. If he gets any number of innings in center this year, we will see some memorable catches from him at the least, and a guy who can get to Schwarber or Castellano's spot from center in the 9th inning could end up having plenty of value to the Phils.

[allentown]

Here is the final chapter of Steve Potter's minor league ST summary: the hitters he liked.

3/30/23 : Spring Camp Notes & Observations - Part Three of Three

[zambonir]

I mean, if they put Pache in to a close late game 20 times and that is worth 1/10th of a win, or he makes one game-saving play that we can all see with our own eyes, isn't that enough to justify the substitution? And the same again if Marsh goes to a corner and makes a few plays Schwarber wouldn't.

I'm sure they want more than that from Pache if they can get it.

Had they not traded O'Hoppe for Marsh they probably would have traded him for upgrades over Robertson or Syndegaard, and also likely someone older and not under control for several years. The trade also allowed them to ultimately get Soto. And let's also give them some credit for getting Stubbs, who had a good year and is also perfectly suited for the more limited back-up role.

[andyb]

The other point too is that they did not give up much. Sullivan is a prospect, but more 96 days than the 98-99 he was showing a few years ago. He is behind 4 or 5 other upper minors relievers. Nice depth and of course a chance he could reclaim that velocity, but there is a chance Pache could be a good player.

If he has not hit when Harper comes back the Phillies might re-evaluate the roster spot, but at this point it is a low risk move and not a disaster. If he is not hitting by June he actually might pass through waivers and get a chance at AAA every day which he probably needs. Remember Marsh has not really hit either yet (though clearly he is acceptable at the major league level - just not good). Having multiple options is a good thing because we have no sure things in our CF pipeline. Marsh, Muzziotti, and Rojas all have big questions about whether they can hit major league pitching too.

[zambonir]

So, Season thread? Is the bot plugged in?