2021 Phillies Major League Regular Season Discussion

[Philsmania]

I read that article as well. I don't think the '97 Flyers belong simply because they were never in that Stanley Cup Final. Rather, the 2000 Flyers losing the 3-1 conference final lead to the Devils was far more painful. Notwithstanding 1997, the Devils always stood in the Flyers' way and, ultimately, game 7 of that series not only ended the Flyers' season but ended the Eric Lindros era (Scott Stevens literally knocked him out--of both the game and the following season--and Lindros never played for the Flyers again). Devils went on to beat the Stars handily in the Cup Final.

[andyb]

Makes sense.. red is usually the color for emergencies.. especially in health situations

Getting back to important stuff, clearly the red jerseys were good luck on Wednesday. Given tonight's starting pitcher, I wonder if they wear them tonight:

[VoteForKalas]

For all the talk of Joe Carter, the worst moment of the '93 World Series and one of the worst collapses in Philadelphia sports history, in my opinion, was the 8th inning of Game 4 when the Phillies blew a 14-9 lead and four of the go-ahead runs scored with two out.

Absolutely correct. I knew the series was lost after that collapse. Toronto was too good to give them extra chances.

I loved that 1993 squad so much. Such a great group of men. The 1983 team was the last gasp of a patched together attempt to keep that era of winning going. I still loved the guys from the 1980 team in 1983, but never warmed to Morgan.

[Philsmania]

For all the talk of Joe Carter, the worst moment of the '93 World Series and one of the worst collapses in Philadelphia sports history, in my opinion, was the 8th inning of Game 4 when the Phillies blew a 14-9 lead and four of the go-ahead runs scored with two out.

Absolutely correct. I knew the series was lost after that collapse. Toronto was too good to give them extra chances.

I loved that 1993 squad so much. Such a great group of men. The 1983 team was the last gasp of a patched together attempt to keep that era of winning going. I still loved the guys from the 1980 team in 1983, but never warmed to Morgan.

I often call that 1983 team "the Phorgotten Phillies Pennant" as it gets lost between the ultimate glory of 1980 and the color and character (or characters) of 1993. The 1983 team simply didn't have very many interesting guys and didn't exude much in the way of personality. And, they weren't the most dramatic and exciting team to watch as the pitching carried the team while the offense was somewhat quiet, except during the September surge. Even so, it is one of only seven Phillies teams to win the NL Championship and it was something of an exclamation mark for the franchise's first golden age.

It was hard not to bond with that '93 team, a colorful group of guys who won a lot and did so with drama and style. The seven miserable years that followed only made phans' memories of that season fonder (but it also made those seven years harder to endure). 1993 was a wonderful oasis in a desert of despair.

Here's an unsettling thought: here in 2021, we are as many years away from our last championship in 2008 as that 1993 team was away from 1980. As I get older, the gap doesn't seem as long. When I was a twentysomething young man in 1993, 1980 felt like lifetimes ago.

[bkox]

Phillies called up OF Matt Vierling and C Rafael Marchan.

Matt Joyce goes on 10-day IL with a low back strain. Andrew Knapp goes on 7-day concussion IL.

— Corey Seidman ( @CSeidmanNBCS ) June 19, 2021

Vierling over Moniak and Haseley is interesting

[Squire]

Vierling was in LHV for like 12 minutes.

[andyb]

Still need a 40-man spot I believe. And can we read Joyce's injury as "Bryce Harper's lower back strain means we need another outfielder in case Bryce can't go any particular day".

Can't expect much from Vierling today (JT will certainly catch). They did not know about these injuries till after midnight on the east coast and it is a day game today on the West Coast. They probably are just arriving now. Hopefully they got the charter jet treatment.

[California_Dreamin]

You know what I remember about 1983? I remember how I simply could not get behind that team till September and I wonder how many of you recall who many of the heroes were that month? Oh sure, Schmidt and Carlton and Denny were solid all year and Holland and Morgan had great last months. But it was the youngsters who led the division chase, you could look it up!

It was Samuel and Lefebvre and Lexcano and Matuszek who were in the lineup often that month and the rotation actually had 3 rookies, Hudson, Gross and a ill fated youngster named Tony Ghelfi pitching in conjunction with the veterans Carlton and Denny. Ghelfi was a minor league phenom and was called up in September and looked for all the world like the next Marty Bystrom to me [September magic] when he injured his arm after pitching very well in all his starts and never appeared in another major league game.

Unfortunately, in the playoffs and WS the Phils went back to their Wheeze Kids guys [Rose, Morgan, Perez] and were badly outplayed by the Orioles.

One more long forgotten but interesting note about that young group I just mentioned. They were playing really well in 1984 and actually went into Chicago in mid June and swept a 4 game series [dominated is more like it] and looked for all the world like they were the best team in the NL. Hayes was hitting well, Samuel was a revelation, Lexcano was solid, Schmidt was Schmidt and Bo Diaz was an All-Star catcher. After winning 11-2, 5-2, 8-2 and leading 9-5 with tho outs in the 9th, closer Al Holland surrendered two straight HRs to make it a 9-7 game. Then, in my mind, their season crashed [visions of Greg Luzinski in 74 dance through my head], when the next hitter hit a triple and left fielder Lefebrve, who was a very good player, tripped and tore up his knee. His season, and career, were over...and so were the '84 Phils.

I often felt had Lefebrve stayed healthy that team was better than the 83 team, as they soon brought up a wunderkind named Jeff Stone who had a half season for the ages....354 batting average and 27 stolen bases in 51 games. But without Lefebrve, they lost a great left handed bat in the middle of the order and they were never the same.

[donaldorc]

You know what I remember about 1983?

CD, I can't believe how prolific your memory is. I remember very little about the things you point out. Thanks for the refresher course!

[bkox]

Bo Diaz was an All-Star catcher

Bo DIaz only played 27 games in 1984 and had a 563 OPS. Ozzie Virgil was our catcher that year. Caught 141 games. He went 4-4 with a HR in that game you mention where Lefebrve went down.

The other interesting thing about that game.. 5 of the 8 men in the Cubs starting lineup were ex-Phils. Dernier, Matthews, Moreland, Bowa and Sandberg.

[andyb]

I guess it is possible that they don't need the roster spot since Anderson's injury is COVID related. COVID IL spots become exempt from the 40-man roster when you need that 40th spot. That could give them a little time to figure out the next move, though now it is harder to DFA Joyce with an injury.

The "play by the unwritten rules" Phillies are certainly driving a truck through this COVID absence loophole. DD influence?

[BostonRoss]

The other interesting thing about that game.. 5 of the 8 men in the Cubs starting lineup were ex-Phils. Dernier, Matthews, Moreland, Bowa and Sandberg.

And the Cubs used Jay Johnstone and Richie Hefner as pinch-hitters!

[bkox]

Zach Eflin will start Sunday for #Phillies , who will skip Spencer Howard’s turn in the rotation. Wheeler, Velasquez will face Nationals on Tuesday-Wednesday. Eflin and Wheeler will be in line to start in NY against Mets on Saturday/Sunday. Howard will be available out of bullpen this weekend.

— Scott Lauber ( @ScottLauber ) June 19, 2021

[bkox]

And the Cubs used Jay Johnstone and Richie Hefner as pinch-hitters!

12 of the 40 players the Cubs used in 1984 were phomer Phils.

[California_Dreamin]

bkox...yep, all because Dallas Green, who left the Phils after the '81 season for Chicago knew the Phils system intimately well and brought over some of the Phillies best young players...guys like Sandberg, Dernier and Moreland. And indeed it was Virgil in '84, Diaz was the starting catcher in '83 and the Phils thought they were getting a guy who would be their catcher for a half decade when they dealt for him.

The thing about that '84 season was that pre-Lefebvre injury, it was the Phils and not the Cubs who were the best team in the East and their 4 game sweep only exemplified that fact. That '84 team had a chance to be very good, they had a catcher named Wockenfuss and an infielder/outfielder named Corcoran who were both solid players that year. They also had lefty Jerry Koosman, who had a very good year. In fact they actually had a 9 game winning streak a bit before the Chicago sweep.

Of course a week later Ryne Sandberg had his game for the ages against Bruce Sutter and the Cubs, Lefebvre and Denny got hurt and eventually the Phils would lose their last 9 games to finish 81-81. But for half a season they were a very good club, and still youngish. Oh, and they also brought in lefty Shane Rawley, who was 10-4 till slumping at the end.

[andyb]

Some small news. Segura thinks he'll be back sooner than expected, shortly after his 10 days are up. And Feliz pitching well at LHV has a July 11 opt out. He is not an option now and certainly not a long term option, but would not be surprised to see him in July.

How Kintzler helped Coonrod reinvent self

[Austinfan]

I'd have to think Kintzler and Hale are looking over their shoulders at Feliz, who has been lights out at Lehigh.

[zambonir]

The Phillies have certainly found a way to hang on to every pitcher long after we might have thought they'd have to DFA one. I'm sure by July 11 they'll have figured out a way to give Feliz a look. They have to activate Moore soon (there was talk of him starting the doubleheader but apparently it's Howard). Can Anderson stay stashed on COVID IL forever? At some point, someone will have to be asked to accept an assignment to AAA (or they have to be willing to lose Hale, I believe that when I see it). Or they'll want to be able to offload one of them in trade if they try to upgrade (i.e. acquire an $8 or $10 million reliever and give the seller the option of taking one of those guys back vs. how much cash they put in the deal).

They've been fortunate that Suarez and now Falter have been able to help while the demoted starters continued taking up space.

[David_Criss]

Phillies called up OF Matt Vierling and C Rafael Marchan.

Matt Joyce goes on 10-day IL with a low back strain. Andrew Knapp goes on 7-day concussion IL.— Corey Seidman

Vierling over Moniak and Haseley is interesting

Moniak's OBP is something like .270 and they want him to work on some specific things at AAA. There are some rumblings that they are not on the same page. Moniak needs to force his way onto this team and has been given a couple chances. Haseley hasn't hit well either at AAA and is on the IL. This was definitely a sign they aren't real pleased with Moniak and maybe getting ready to move on.
Also, Vierling was going to be added this winter, so why not do it now and give him a shot and a reward? Randolp may have been given this shot, but he, too is on the IL.

[andyb]

Also, Vierling was going to be added this winter, so why not do it now and give him a shot and a reward?

There is a reason to delay and that would be that Vierling would tie up a 40-man spot this season and he would certainly be claimed if he had to be waived off the roster at some point. Clearly he has been playing better than anyone else down there. But it is also possible he is still seen as a AAAA kind of guy who is hot now and right-handed (which the team is a little short of on the bench).

I am not saying it was the wrong move. It was probably the right one for the MLB club today. It just does enhance the odds of losing either Vierling or somebody else (because the roster spot is take) at some point this year or next winter. I think it was not much better than 50-50 that the Phillies were planning on adding Vierling to the roster next winter if they even think that far ahead. He was just not seen as the type of prospect worth protecting a couple of months ago and his stats still need to be taken with a grain of salt this year because they were in Reading and he was old to be a prospect at that level.