2021 Phillies Major League Regular Season Discussion

[zambonir]

What's the thinking there, let Maton replace our best-hitting infielder? I'd sooner trade Gregorius. The fight will blow over. And the mistakes are team-wide.

[LoneStarPhan]

I'm sure the sloppy play and nagging injuries to several players have everyone on edge. Everyone wants to play well and everyone wants tp win. Coming home should help.

[flyers19rw]

His fielding seems to be equal to his attitude. This club doesn’t need a player mouthing off with the manager in the dugout. It’s not like this is the first time Segura has had clubhouse problems during his career. At a point his bat doesn’t surpass his other negatives.

[zambonir]

It's true, but if his issues are enough to get him traded he's also untradeable. And between the Cutch injury and now he's generally been a good solider, praised for his willingness to move around the diamond and considered a good veteran. This will blow over just like when Ken Giles almost got in a fight with Bowa (yes, he was traded, but only for baseball reasons) or Bryce Harper got into it with Papelbon in DC. The Phillies aren't good enough to subtract a player of his offensive quality. Not even near good enough, given the way the SS and the 3B are hitting.

In the end, it's disappointing they couldn't go 5-4 instead of 4-5 on this road trip, but also surprising they did that well given the state of the roster and forgettable starts by Eflin and Nola. It cost us all of a half game in the standings and the Mets just lost three games in a row with two injuries of their own.

[zambonir]

Probably pretty low-risk at the moment, but not no-risk. They can also put him back on, of course (or make a trade).

And then there’s Kingery. The Phillies, according to multiple sources, have explored scenarios to remove Kingery not just from the active roster but also the 40-man roster.

After playing short again, depth-challenged Phillies plan to shuffle roster

[andyb]

Interesting that they would consider demoting Kingery off the 40. He clearly can't help the Phillies now. One would think they still think of him as a potential future piece. Maybe Maton has changed that thinking (with Stott coming in a year or two). They might be calculating the odds of him passing through waivers, but they also might be thinking that getting out from under his salary if he was claimed would not be the worst thing in the world.

No idea if he has enough service time to declare free agency, but that is probably moot since he'd be foregoing his contract in that situation. At the very least he needs a couple of months of solid AAA to fix things and the Phillies may need his roster spot (though the lesser pitchers on the 40 - Llovera, Dohy - may also be in danger too).

[zambonir]

Yeah I would not think a team actually claims him, though some teams might be willing to talk trade/cost-sharing.

Would certainly hate to see the team give up on him, and would hate to see him thrive elsewhere even more, but both the people who drafted him and the people who gave him that contract are gone, so there's no real ego/emotional attachment. And there wouldn't be much backlash either (i.e. just as many people would be like "thank God they got rid of that bum" as "once again the Phillies failed to develop a young player").

The article implies the move was supposed to happen over the weekend but then Harper's injury changed things.

[Sabin]

It's true, but if his issues are enough to get him traded he's also untradeable.

While I don't disagree with your thoughts on Segura in general, this statement isn't exactly valid. The standards and judgement of one team do not necessarily match that of another. To that point, your following post notes that while the Phillies' removal of Kingery from their 40 due to his extended performance issues may be low risk, it isn't no risk either.

[Taudawg]

I would designate Kingery and open up a roster spot. I'm in the camp that doesn't think another team would make a claim. If one did make a claim, I would let him go.

[fish]

I would designate Kingery and open up a roster spot. I'm in the camp that doesn't think another team would make a claim. If one did make a claim, I would let him go.

Feels like a guy the rays would turn around in flash, but it aint' happening here unfortunately.

[zambonir]

Well yeah, but Segura was already pretty much untradeable because of his contract. His performance this year makes him fleetingly attractive, but not with the cost of his 2022 paycheck.

So if you throw in a situation where A) the Phillies have to trade him because he had a fight with the manager (not that I think that's true) or B) he's re-acquiring a bit of his "bad clubhouse guy" reputation, you're not getting anything for him, metaphorically speaking. A couple of PTBNL-type guys, or you're paying nearly all his salary.

The Mariners got something for him, but they had take Santana (they still robbed us though, since we took back Nicasio and they found another taker for Carlos).

In both Kingery and Segura's case (if you were really trying to trade Segura), really your best bet is to trade them for some other team's Kingery or Segura.

Lots of baseball left this year but we really have no idea who will be at SS and 2B next year, more than ever, which is crazy considering it is technically an area of depth. Just probably not Kingery, and I was skeptical Didi would stay at SS in 2022 regardless. Maton's as likely as contender as any of them right now (but so are the free agent SSs if they keep spending).

[Philsmania]

Kingery would be an $18 million reclamation project. Maybe a team like the Orioles, Tigers or Marlins could afford it. Or, perhaps, a Gabe Kapler would love have him once again. I always got the sense that he pressured Klentak to buy out his service time after he became so enamored with him in 2018 spring training.

[zambonir]

Yeah, lucky for us (???) the teams that are most qualified to salvage him are the ones who trade their own good players at his level of salary (at least in 2022).

[David_Criss]

Seems like a few no brainer moves would be to:
1. place Knapp on the DL and activate Bradley
2. DFA Anderson and recall Howard - they will need 2 40-man spots in the near future for Torreyes and Haseley, this takes care of one
3. Romero to the 60-day opens up the 2nd 40-man spot needed
4.Option Kingery and recall Torreyes
That leaves the bench at: Marchan, Maton, Torreyes and Miller
5. Option Hale or Brogdon - Hale actually has a better WHIP than Brogdon, Alvarado and Kintzler for Joyce or Quinn or Williams or Jankowski

Are these moves that make them an instant contender - not by a long shot, but its a start. Kingery was to good to have lost it all this quickly. I hope he can play 2B at LeHigh Valley and be the 2B we dreamed of after Segura or Gregorius are traded in the off season.

[zambonir]

We'll find out by morning, if not sooner.

Supposedly they are also adding Jose Bonifacio, more AAA depth but certainly not an instant 40-man add.

They're not going to DFA Anderson, I wouldn't even pull him from the rotation personally, but it sounds like the plan is to make him and Howard a tandem, regardless of who starts. And Hale can't be optioned.

In the long run, one of Hale, Anderson/Moore or even Kintzler will have to be DFA'ed or traded. Not the end of the world if any of them go unclaimed or become expensive AAA players temporarily I suppose.

We don't need to be an instant contender, we're already a contender.

[andyb]

They probably need to think seriously about Didi to the IL also. This is a lingering problem and they can back date 3 days.

No idea if Knapp needs to go on the IL. That will have to be a medical decision based on info we don't know about yet. Assume they will do the easy Torreyes and Romero move. Then Bradley for either Didi or Knapp. If they IL both they can bring back Joyce or Quinn. Marlins have a LHP so you would want Quinn by then.

I also can't see them DFA'ing Anderson. He clearly seems to fall apart when things don't go well, but he has also been decent in the majority of his outings. He and Moore just don't have the stuff any more to make small mistakes unfortunately, but it is also uncertain what they'll get out of Howard and one wonders if VV comes back to earth too. I just don't see them crossing off options just yet. Can't option Hale either and Brogdon has been pretty good after a couple of low velocity outings early in the year.

[zambonir]

Yeah I'm sort of puzzled by the media's eagerness to bring Howard up. I'm glad he's pitching well and understand A) we'll need him and B) his limited innings should be used where they matter most, but none of our 4-7 starters are likely to be a permanent answer by August 1. Even if it is Howard/Velasquez by then Howard probably won't be available for the stretch run. None of the four seem likely to emerge as a surefire Game 4 playoff starter, if that's the goal.

The press seemed to think Knapp's injury being ribs meant it was more than a day-to-day thing for sure, but we'll see. JT and Harper remain concerns as well. JT's injury is not the bruised knee that kept him out - and then put him on the COVID list, we think - of the Nats games, but the previous wrist injury.

[bkox]

Maybe the whole team should have a "COVID outbreak".. postpone a weeks worth of games.. get everyone healed. And we have a bunch of 7 innning double headers where Anderson and Howard and VInce's innings wont matter as much..

[andyb]

They probably should create a tandem out of Howard and somebody. Moore actually make the most sense and then you have Velasquez and Anderson competing for the other slot but not as a tandem because Vince is getting us into the 6th pretty regularly. It is fascinating that he has learned to pitch more as his stuff has declined a bit. One might think he was ill served by previous coaching staffs that had him just throw the fastball 80% of the time instead of working on his change and curve which have now improved.

As I think I warned before the year, these realities probably mean we go with a 14-man staff most of the time and a short 4-person bench. They will finesse that when they have off days and roster moves (occasionally having the extra pitcher), but I am betting they go with 14 most of the time. Probably means Joyce does not have a job when everyone is healthy. Though if Miller and Maton are on the healthy bench, we probably don't need Joyce (assuming Quinn is the other OF).

[zambonir]

Joyce should be replaced by a RHB by late July anyway (hard to imagine that being Kingery att his point). Or he could be replaced by Haseley, who can also be optioned if you want to cycle between the four and five-man bench (and that takes care of the 40-man spot too).

Joyce was Fuld's guy and Torreyes is Joe's guy and Maton really does render both of them expendable.

Finding a way to give Williams a look is not the worst idea either, once the roster spots shake out.

For all the injuries and roster issues they still just had the best home series of the season followed by the best road trip of the season (even if that's a low, low bar). Getting ahead of it all so they have another good homestand, which is by no means easy (not only do the Marlins' usually own us but they have the best RD in the division) is obviously crucial. Because you can bet they won't have a winning record on the next road trip either.