Discussion

California_Dreamin 2020-09-09 23:41:34 UTC #561

With all due respect, this team right now could not hold a candle to that 1993 juggernaut, a truly powerful and deep team. Actually its not close. That team was in first place the entire season, save for one day the first week of the season, and were never truly challenged for the division title save for a couple of days when the Cards and Expos made pseudo attempts to make it a race. That team beat a powerful Atlanta Braves team in the playoffs and came within a blown 14-9 eighth inning lead in Game 4 of entering the last inning of Game 6 three outs from a World Series title.

That team was incredibly deep with a bench of Pete Incavlia, Wes Chamberlain, Mariano Duncan, Kim Batisite, Rickey Jordan and Todd Pratt. Most of those players would have been regulars on other teams. The one weakness they began the season with, shortstop, was quickly turned into a major strength when rookie Kevin Stocker replaced Juan Bell in June.

As for the pitching, the '93 team had a five man rotation that remained stable all season...Curt Schilling, Tommy Greene, Terry Mulholland, Danny Jackson and Ben Rivera. Save a few weeks when Mulholland missed a couple of starts they were the starters the entire season and none won less than 12 games.

The bullpen was deep and effective. Yes, Williams drove us all crazy but he saved 43 games during the regular season and saved 3 more in the playoffs. David West was a tremendous southpaw presence that season and Larry Anderson was dependable and effective. The bullpen only got deeper when they added Roger Mason and Bobby Thigpen.

Look, I want to like this team as much as the next guy [though I am struggling with this whole bubble, 60 game, no phans season and admit it readily] but this team has more warts on its pinky fingers than the 93 team had on its entire body. Lenny Dykstra, Darren Daulton, John Kruk, Dave Hollins as well as Stocker, Chamberlain, Duncan and Morandini had career years and I don't think any Phillie this year is having what we would consider a career year, 60 games or not.

That team also a great pitching coach in Johnny Podres and while Price is a good coach, I don't think he matches up to Podres. The one area where this team is better is the manager. I am deeply impressed with Joe Girardi and if this team does make the playoffs and has any post season success I will lay it at the feet of him. He is calm, focused and truly manages with a plan and if MK had given him a better bullpen this team would be 5 games better than they are now. After only 40 games I rank him with Mauch, Green and Manuel on my list of the greatest managers in my Phillie phan lifetime.

Other than Girardi over Fregosi, there really is no comparison between the two teams. This team is very average in a very watered down baseball product, that '93 team was ranked quite comfortably with incredibly talented teams in Toronto, Atlanta and San Francisco that year.

Philsmania 2020-09-09 23:57:56 UTC #562

From top to bottom, the 2008 Phillies' pitching staff (rotation and bullpen) was better than both this year and '93, in my opinion. The '93 was an offensive juggernaut that had a better-than-average staff altogether but didn't win with its pitching. They were bad in the field, though, unlike this year's team and 2008.

zambonir 2020-09-10 00:37:04 UTC #563

JT aside, this year's team doesn't seem especially good in the field. Some neutral to slightly positive players, some neutral to negative players. Some guys who are still growing into it, we hope, but others are declining at the same time.

Austinfan 2020-09-10 01:54:35 UTC #564

This team is impossible to judge, most years you'd just be hitting stride in June with 60 games under your belt, and a team would be tested by how it finished the last 100 games.
This year, by the time some players (Kingery) get healthy and their stroke back, the season will be over.

zambonir 2020-09-10 02:13:32 UTC #565

It is what it is. This year's team might also still win the division, not just the wild card, with the equivalent of 86-87 wins.

But CD's not wrong... if this team's numbers were from 162 games, the '93 team still has them beat, even if some of the '93 players did things that weren't sustainable while this team probably has a more accomplished group of players (some of whom are already in decline alas). And of course it wasn't so much that they had a strong bench as, they were a platoon-heavy squad - LF, RF, 2B (and 2B was still pretty sad, sentiment and Mariano's occasional heroics aside). That team got lucky with Stocker, this team has Bohm. This team's bench is actually a big strength right now too though, even if Knapp and Gosselin's #s don't seem real and Bruce and Kingery are on IL.

LoneStarPhan 2020-09-10 03:09:13 UTC #566

2020 World Series will be held at Globe Life Field in Arlington.

The World Series is coming to Arlington, according to Gov. Greg Abbott.

His (Texas governor Greg Abbott) tweet included a link to a Bloomberg article published Wednesday that outlined the playoff plans for the MLB. According to the Bloomberg article, four National League teams will head to Houston and Arlington for the playoffs. American League squads will go to Los Angeles and San Diego.

zambonir 2020-09-10 03:35:31 UTC #567

It makes more sense than California really, even w/o fans the time zone makes more sense, and teams can bubble so close to the stadium. Plus they could maybe use the other one for practice. But aren't the Cowboys planning to have fans?

I guess they also deliberately took away home field, which is also smart (though I bet Houston and LA aren't thrilled about it).

BostonRoss 2020-09-10 12:32:05 UTC #568

I think they should have held the World Series here in Boston. No home field advantage this year, and the usual issues with having large events in Boston (few and expensive hotel rooms, bad traffic, low seating capacity at Fenway) aren't problems now. And the chance of snow is probably less than 5%.

allentown 2020-09-10 13:00:33 UTC #569

The California wildfires are too big an issue. I would have thought TX and CA were greater Covid risks than playoffs in the Northeast, although our weather isn't likely to be as good.

zambonir 2020-09-10 17:27:02 UTC #570

Well, let's hope they are not an issue by early October. 25,000 people will be attending college football games in Texas this weekend so one can't help but suspect that's part of it too, that they might consider having fans.

It makes sense to me, to some extent, that teams could more easily hole up and be safer in San Diego or LA in a quasi-suburban hotel (though in LA they likely stay downtown) than in Rittenhouse Square or midtown Manhattan. But clearly having the bubble where it's more likely to rain or get cold is not even under consideration (might rain in TX but they have roofs).

California_Dreamin 2020-09-10 18:08:12 UTC #571

Obviously, a series of over 4 games is almost unheard of in baseball pre-playoffs but in thinking of past 4+ series during my time as a phan I fondly think back to a late August five game series in New York that literally turned the 1980 season around for the Phillies and are often cited as the series that arguably changed the entire campaign around for the eventual World Champion Phillies.

If you weren't around then and hear only of the amazing Sept/Oct games that were both gut wrenching and heart stopping, and indeed they were. But as the Phils limped into Shea Stadium after a moribund 1-6 road trip to Pittsburgh and Chicago the last thing any Phillie phan was thinking about was a playoff berth, much less a world series. The Eagles were the talk of the town in Philadelphia, Dallas Green hated the Phillies, the Phillies hated Dallas Green, Greg Luzinski was on the disabled list and this Phillie team was going to be disbanded at the end of the season. Gone, Garry Maddox, gone Larry Bowa, gone Greg Luzinski, gone Ron Reed, gone the group that had given so many Phillie phans chills, thrills and heartache since 1976.

Four days later, the Phils were heading home with Luzinski coming back soon, a rotation that was 6 strong and about to add Marty Bystrom and Sparky Lyle to what became a menacing pitching staff...and eventually the first World Series triumph in franchise history. Read em and weep if you are a Mets fan....8-1, 8-0, 11-6, 9-4 and 4-1 were the scores and every player on the Phillies roster save for starter Dick Ruthven [he had pitched in Chicago the day before the Mets series] and relievers Dicky Noles and Warren Brusstar participated in ramrodding of the Mets.

It was completely unexpected and literally saved their season. They came home only 3.5 games out and played well enough to actually move into first place by Sept 1, and from them till the end they and Montreal went back and forth till an eleventh inning two run home run by Michael Jack Schmidt on the last Saturday of the season in Montreal catapulted the team into the playoffs.

We all know what happened once they got there.

zambonir 2020-09-11 03:58:49 UTC #572

Apparently the bullpen is no longer our biggest problem

LoneStarPhan 2020-09-11 06:24:10 UTC #573

We just have to laugh. Whatever will be will be.

But the NFL and some college football is now started, so we have another diversion.

Austinfan 2020-09-11 11:55:45 UTC #574

We'll see how that works out, the places that are allowing fans tend to be of a political persuasion that pretends COVID isn't a real problem - until reality slaps them in their face.

David_Criss 2020-09-11 14:25:08 UTC #575

With Wheeler ripping a fingernail on his pants, I love Girardi's quote with a heavy sigh...you just can't make this stuff up."
Options are very limited, especially since the trade deadline has passed. Llovera, Rosso, Medina and Irvin have all starting credits and are on the 40-man. Damon Jones is at the alternate site, too. Suarez and Romero are the only two lefties in the pen now, so I can't see that happening.

andyb 2020-09-11 16:18:24 UTC #576

Also Enyel De Los Santos cleared waivers and has been stretched out as a starter. Would require a 40-man move though unless someone goes on the 60/45-day IL. I imagine they'll do this first DH within the 40 though, so probably Irvin or Rosso.

Philsmania 2020-09-11 17:43:32 UTC #577

I know people here don't like to use cliches but, in my opinion, the bullpen is one area that is susceptible to the domino effect. One important guy begins to struggle and, before you know it, every one else starts pressing to pick up the slack and is struggling as well. Conversely, one guy falls into place and everything starts clicking. The latter is what happened with the Nationals' bullpen after they got Hudson who was lights-out for them. See also, the Marlins in 2003 after they got Urbina. If Workman pitched like it was still 2019 when he got there, I could see everyone here settling down.

zambonir 2020-09-11 18:38:56 UTC #578

It does feel like the meltdowns are contagious. But I don't really think Hudson made other guys pitch better. The Nats had already turned things around in June and July, and always had the pitching (plus they got Trea Turner back).

Who know what sort of bullpen we'd be watching in May and June in a normal season, would Klentak have made a lot of early trades? Made bigger ones at the deadline. This group could probably sort itself out in two months too, but we won't get to find out.

David_Criss 2020-09-11 19:08:14 UTC #579

How much does the catcher figure into all of this? This is not a slam on Knapp or JT, but an honest question.
Hale, Hembree, Phelps, Romero, Rosso and Workman never really had any experience throwing to either of the Phillies receivers before last week. Neris is the only one who threw to them and worked with them last year. Parker, Suarez and Hunter had limited time. It has to be tough joining a new team and pitching immediately to a catcher who has never called or caught you before.

Philsmania 2020-09-11 19:21:16 UTC #580

Isn't Realmuto supposed to be elite? How many times have pitchers been traded to new teams and they continued to pitch well? If that is the issue, that would be an indictment of the supposedly-elite Realmuto.