2020-21-22 Sixers Season

[BostonRoss]

I agree with Allentown that it’s wrong to assume that Simmons’ lack of shooting ability, especially from the line, could be improved if only he put in more effort.

From my previous post about the Mike McDonald story, this is most likely not true. I would be all ears if you want to refute a story from someone with average, at best, athletic attributes can shoot 90 out of 100, but one of the most athletic people on the planet can't... then I'd like to hear the reasoning.

I guess I don't accept your premise that a tremendously talented athlete should be highly skilled at every single athletic task, just because a lesser athlete can do better at some. There are a lot of superstars in every sport who can't perform every task at a top level. Do you assume that Harper isn't a better fielder because he isn't putting in the work?

[phillychuck]

There are really two kinds of athleticism (at least). There is a run fast, jump high, short-area quickness, functional strength type, which Simmons excels at. There is also a repeatability/touch type of athleticism that is really important in golf and free-throw shooting. Pitching requires both types. Most players in most sports have some sort of blend of these things. Simmons is not a repeatability athlete at all. His struggles at the line point to a problem with repeatability/touch tasks, probably exacerbated by how he handles his limitation psychologically. As Boston Ross wrote, we can't assume because he's a great type of athlete in one respect his limitations are because he just doesn't work hard.

Lots of very good pro athletes have trouble with repeatability athleticism (look at Barkley trying to play golf for the last 30 years). Usain Bolt, LeBron, Shaq, and Kobe all are/were supposedly (with video evidence) awful at golf. Barkley tried as hard as he could to play decent golf, and up until very recently he struggled to break 100, which I can do in my sleep, and I'm an old man with no quickness, or ups, ever. I also shot almost 85% from the line in HS basketball, but that was really my only strength (shooting and running as hard as I could).

I think we should try to accept people as they are, and not try to compare them unfavorably to what we think they might be able to become if only they worked harder.

[zambonir]

The Simmons "debate" is pretty much the Rollins "debate," or the Howard "debate." Not precisely - in theory Ben could work on his shooting, and should, without it affecting other elements of his game, whereas Jimmy learning to take more walks or Ryan trying to make more contact was very planning going to defenestrate other aspects of their hitting.

That doesn't mean there aren't still players I would trade Ben for. And they almost certainly won't be players of the same age. The debate is really about the championship window, and it's actually incredible that we're already having it again after last year. Our expectations have risen from the regular season, though outside of Philly I can't really find anyone who thinks we'll get out of the East. Of course right now we need to focus on re-claiming home court in this round first.

I also wish Ben was more like Kobe or Jimmy Butler, but he's just not that guy. You either live with it, hope he finds that sort of temperament during the many years he still has ahead of him, or don't live with it.

[LegoDoom]

You are totally missing the point of my post. I'm asking fans, subjectively, if they could make a 1 for 1 trade with Ben, today, who from the list I posted (people around his age or younger) would you trade him for? I'm making absolutely no comment about the draft itself. I'm just asking fans what THEY think they'd be willing to trade him for. It's interesting because it sort of focuses the complaining about his play, rather than comparing him to an abstract "what he could be" we're comparing him to his contemporaries.

I mean, ok.... Doncic 100% and you had Ayton and Bagley ahead of him on draft day IIRC.

But this isn't the scenario. At the time of the draft, Simmons was a Lebron type of player. I hope you see the difference.

[LegoDoom]

I agree with Allentown that it’s wrong to assume that Simmons’ lack of shooting ability, especially from the line, could be improved if only he put in more effort.

From my previous post about the Mike McDonald story, this is most likely not true. I would be all ears if you want to refute a story from someone with average, at best, athletic attributes can shoot 90 out of 100, but one of the most athletic people on the planet can't... then I'd like to hear the reasoning.

I guess I don't accept your premise that a tremendously talented athlete should be highly skilled at every single athletic task, just because a lesser athlete can do better at some. There are a lot of superstars in every sport who can't perform every task at a top level. Do you assume that Harper isn't a better fielder because he isn't putting in the work?

It's a "free" throw. There is nothing else to calculate. Simmons biggest weakness is that he isn't static when he shoots (he either fades away or is leaning towards). You can actually get very good at this without much athletic ability.

[phillychuck]

I mean, ok.... Doncic 100% and you had Ayton and Bagley ahead of him on draft day IIRC.

But this isn't the scenario. At the time of the draft, Simmons was a Lebron type of player. I hope you see the difference.

You have me confused with another poster. I don't believe I even cared about the top of the draft board when Doncic was drafted (since the Sixers had no pick there), much less offered an opinion. Once again, I'm not talking about drafting. What do Bagley and Ayton have to do with the question I asked?

I have no idea what your second paragraph means.

[LegoDoom]

Sixers 2018 Offseason

Yes, you didn't care about the top of the draft board, which is a leak as Doncic was a generational player (which is what most fans thought Simmons was). However the 2 picks you had before him are just average in today's NBA

IIRC, the Sixers traded a future 1st pick (from the Fultz trade) went to the Celtics, which went to the Cavs. It wouldn't have been hard to trade up for Doncic.

I guess you don't see why your hypothetical isn't really relevant. You are asking who the Sixers would swap for Simmons in a 3 year draft span. I am saying that the Sixers could have gotten much more value by trading the Simmons pick at the time of the draft.

You can't look at this after the fact and ask this question. It is the entire reason why I argued against trading up for Fultz. Boston didn't see him as a generational 1st overall pick and the Sixers shouldn't have either. However, the Sixers thought that Simmons was (which was not unfounded).

As far as what Bagley and Ayton have to do with your question.... they were in the same draft as Doncic (and judging by you previous comments, you had rated higher). You listed Doncic, but not Ayton and Bagley. In other words, you are cherry picking after the fact.

If you want to play this game, then Jokic, Embiid, and Simmons win multiple titles. You could remove Simmons from that statement and come to the same conclusion.

The big takeaway should be that the 1st overall pick has much more value before the draft than after (see the Sixers-Celtics trade). If you want to say who we would swap Simmons for years after the draft (and spanning multiple drafts), then you are using hindsight

The Simmons pick is worth much more than Simmons current value, which was my entire point.

[zambonir]

So how 'bout Ben for Curry?

Morey hit with tampering fine for Curry tweet

[LegoDoom]

I guess I don't accept your premise that a tremendously talented athlete should be highly skilled at every single athletic task, just because a lesser athlete can do better at some. There are a lot of superstars in every sport who can't perform every task at a top level. Do you assume that Harper isn't a better fielder because he isn't putting in the work?

The difference is that this isn't an athletic task. There are many factors into playing CF. Not so much with a free throw. Outside of the pressure/crowd, this should be easy to learn. To assume that a top tier athlete can't learn this is most likely false.

And, again, I never said Simmons isn't putting in the work.

[LegoDoom]

Maybe the better analogy is that Harper should be able to throw a strike, from the mound, 70% of the time. Is that unreasonable?

EDIT... with no batter.

[phillychuck]

LD, then you are clearly making a different point that I was. This was not a re-visit of the draft, it was a response to the current, present-day Simmons debate. My point was that many fans are down on Simmons, but there are actually very few players of his age playing any better than he is. The question of "who would you trade him for NOW" has nothing to do with his draft, at least in the argument I'm making. Your response is a Straw Man--you are arguing against a point I didn't make.

I'm not interested in re-hashing Simmons versus Ingram or anyone else at the time of the draft, I'm asking the Simmons critics who, of his age and experience, would you trade him for, flaws and all. If one can't find anyone but Doncic of his age to trade him for (which I can't), I don't see the sense in picking at his flaws.

Finally, other posters have previously criticized your ability to read carefully. I won't do that, but let me point out that in the post you quoted I was not rating the players at the top of that draft, I was predicting how the top of the draft would turn out. I feel pretty darn good about the top 3 I predicted, since that is the EXACT order in which they were picked. I'm batting 100% on that prediction.

[LegoDoom]

LD, then you are clearly making a different point that I was. This was not a re-visit of the draft, it was a response to the current, present-day Simmons debate. My point was that many fans are down on Simmons, but there are actually very few players of his age playing any better than he is. The question of "who would you trade him for NOW" has nothing to do with his draft, at least in the argument I'm making. Your response is a Straw Man--you are arguing against a point I didn't make.

Then your question is flawed since you didn't have Zion. I'd take Doncic, Zion, Tatum, Young and Mitchell over Simmons any day. Maybe not Mitchell, but it's close.

Finally, other posters have previously criticized your ability to read carefully. I won't do that, but let me point out that in the post you quoted I was not rating the players at the top of that draft, I was predicting how the top of the draft would turn out. I feel pretty darn good about the top 3 I predicted, since that is the EXACT order in which they were picked. I'm batting 100% on that prediction.

Yes, your prediction is correct because that is what most media said it would be. However, Doncic was the clear generational talent and you had him listed last. If you had the #1 or #2 pick, then you would have passed on the best and 2nd best player. Good job, though.

[phillychuck]

I'm done with this discussion. It's like talking to a wall. I didn't rate Doncic third, I predicted he would be picked third. Those are widely different things. But, even if I had rated him third, WHICH I DIDN'T, what in the bloody blue blazes does it have to do with who you would trade Simmons for now?

The list I chose was arbitrary and excluded Zion's draft as too recent for us to have a firm idea of any player in that draft's ability and long-term health prospects. My choice, disagree if you'd like.

By the way, my prediction was correct, period. Things are not correct because they conform or do not conform to other's predicted picks. Doncic was actually expected to go about pick 5 in that draft and many NBA pundits criticized the decision to trade up for him at the time (if you look at contemporaneous draft scorecards).

[LegoDoom]

Finally, other posters have previously criticized your ability to read carefully. I won't do that....

Good job at not doing that, BTW.

[zambonir]

If we trade Ben, it's not going to be for another young player. Heck, we were going to trade him and Thybulle for James Harden and he's 31 (supposedly only the Rockets asking for Maxey instead is what stopped it)! Dame is 30.

I also think at some point this thread conflated Ben's foul shooting with his overall shooting. He's a 61.3% foul shooter this year. He is a career 59.7% foul shooter. I have no doubt he will become a 70% foul shooter eventually. It's not even that much to ask. He just happened to shoot 50% for a particular and unusual stretch of one game.

But Ben is extraordinary at a lot of things, and also unlike any other player. If he was a 6'4" point guard it would be inexcusable that he couldn't make free throws. But imagine if the Sixers had a true point guard, or an unstoppable force shooting guard, and Ben was still on the team. At that point the only thing we'd be talking about is whether Joel was slowing the offense down.

[LegoDoom]

I also think at some point this thread conflated Ben's foul shooting with his overall shooting. He's a 61.3% foul shooter this year. He is a career 59.7% foul shooter. I have no doubt he will become a 70% foul shooter eventually. It's not even that much to ask. He just happened to shoot 50% for a particular and unusual stretch of one game.

His foul shooting by year:
56%
60%
62.1%
61.3%

Serious question.... How does he get to 70%? This thread has told me it's not a learnable skill. Removing a chunk of data doesn't mean he's better than he actually is.

[andyb]

Free throw shooting used to be a learnable skill. Moses Malone? There used to be lots of players who entered the league shooting in the mid-60s that learned to shoot in the 75%-80% range. It just does not happen anywhere near as often these days. We used to think all these guys would learn to shoot 70% to succeed in the league. Now it seems more important to work on other things like 3-point shooting.

[bkox]

Ya know... if I didnt know the Sixers were in the playoffs before coming into this thread.. I would think this was a last place team and people were arguing about who needed to go.

[LegoDoom]

I would agree if Simmons shot more than 0.1 threes per game.

[LegoDoom]

I totally agree and apologize for ruining the thread, but people keep doubling down that learning how to shoot a FT is unpossible.

Please remove me from the thread if that's an option.