2020-21-22 Sixers Season

[bigegypt0417]

You would need to find a team with young talent and drsft capital...you will have to take volume since you can never match the talent.

[zambonir]

Well I don't think you're trading Joel the way the Rockets traded Harden. You're looking for someone who still makes you a championship contender now. Maybe you get some picks to sweeten it, to add value and some future hedge. And if it's someone like Luka (very unlikely of course) the Sixers would be the ones doing the sweetening.

I don't trade Joel based specifically on what happens this year, either injury-wise or results-wise. Whether or not you can live with his conditioning and durability was always a question, and just because he's improved the former doesn't mean that body won't still be injury-prone. As it has always been, or we wouldn't have even been able to draft him in the first place.

[allentown]

Simmons is still young. The major rule of big trades is that the team that acquires the young star invariably wins the trade, not always, but the odds would be severely stacked against us in such a trade and we would be staring at multiple seasons of futility before returning to our present strength. It's a move teams make to save money, not to boost them closer to a title.

[zambonir]

We're talking about trading Joel now, not Ben. Unless BE flipped back to the former topic w/o directly replying to a post about it.

But neither trade would be the start of futility. You're only trading Ben if you think someone else can help you win a title before Joel's next contract (or injury). And you're only trading Joel for someone who you think can win one with Ben over the next 2-3 years. And you're only talking about this at all because it's hard to trade Harris for enough help (but also not impossible).

The reason trading Joel can never be ruled out is that the timeline might be longer with Ben, though it might not be any longer with whoever you get for Joel.

Anyway, we don't have to talk about this again for a while once Sunday comes! But with Portland and the Lakers and the Knicks all out it's already hot stove season in the national media.

[bigegypt0417]

We're talking about trading Joel now, not Ben. Unless BE flipped back to the former topic w/o directly replying to a post about it.

I was talking about Joel...i love watching him play but this would be the time to move him...

[zambonir]

A large and vocal portion of the Blazers fan base is upset that Jason Kidd has been floated as a candidate to coach, and that Lillard has publicly endorsed the idea. Can't imagine it happens now, the backlash (regarding Kidd's history of domestic violence) has been just that big. But the discourse went very quickly from "the Blazers have let Dame down and this is their last chance to win and keep him from wanting out" to people doing this....

[phillychuck]

We can't win a 'ship without Jo healthy. With Jo healthy I think the crew we have now has/had a good shot. I'm not eager to shake up the pieces around him without letting the current crew have a real shot. And if Jo is never healthy enough, it doesn't really matter, right?

[zambonir]

Well, "the current crew" is still not static. Green will likely be gone and Hill can also be waived with very little cap hit if necessary (or still pretty easily traded). And Curry will always be tradeable in the right deal. Morey will have a lot to play with just in the normal course of things, as opposed to trying to move either of the Big 2... or our highest-paid player, Tobias Harris.

Nothing can be ruled out if it ends up looking like the Sixers can't keep pace with the Nets (and if they play the Bucks and lose that would be even worse). If they lose to Atlanta without Joel I don't know what you're supposed to make of the season. But, early days.

[bkox]

Source: Joel Embiid (right knee) will play and start in Game 1 of the Sixers-Hawks Eastern Conference Semifinals today (1 PM, ABC).

— Adrian Wojnarowski ( @wojespn ) June 6, 2021

[phillychuck]

Woohoo!!

[zambonir]

So this is full-strength huh?

[bkeich]

Given the 74-54 score at halftime if they stay “out” of this game I hope they rest Embiid. Maybe go small and see if you can get it down to 10 points and then think about bringing him back.

[zambonir]

They were still in it to start the 4th, but no longer. He could already be done?

[zambonir]

well good thing we're not coaching I guess

[bigegypt0417]

Just in case it wasn't clear in that first half...Danny Green can't defend Trae Young.

[LegoDoom]

An interesting exercise on this board would be a "who would you trade Simmons for" discussion. I'll only list players drafted around the time he was...

1. Ingram?
2. Jaylen Brown?
3. Siakam?
4. Brogdon?
5. Tatum?
6. Mitchell?
7. Doncic?
8. T. Young?

Thats about it in 2016/17/18. I'd trade him for Doncic. I don't think it's close on anyone else. And even with Doncic, you'd be losing about as much on defense as you'd be gaining on offense.

TBH, this isn't that interesting.

A few years ago when phans loved Saric, I responded that I think he was a good player, but his talent was limited. My response to this question was that I would have taken Jokic (which is obviously correct in hindsight). Did the Sixers mess up that pick? Most phans would say no, but your question would say they were wrong.

You have Tatum listed and the Sixers traded up to pass on him.

In order to perform this exercise, you have to assume it's from the day of the draft and not after the fact.

I thought Ben was the obvious #1 choice and wasn't concerned about his shot as that can be fixed. I still agree with half of that statement. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem his shot can be fixed.

Ben is obviously a good player, but has one major limitation. If people want to remove his draft ranking that's fine, but you then have to include the percentage of the cap that he currently (and in the future occupies).

And I would be totally fine with his current game as long as he'd learn how to shoot free throws. Well maybe I wish he'd be more aggressive.

EDIT: to expand on that, you have players listed in drafts that Ben wasn't in, so the team could have obviously traded the 2016 #1 pick at the time of the draft for much more than what you listed.

EDIT #2: In other words.... Ben Simmons on draft day is probably worth more than he is today. You could play this game all day. The Spurs wanted Simmons in a deal for Kawhi. In hindsight, would you do that deal?

[LegoDoom]

I agree with Allentown that it’s wrong to assume that Simmons’ lack of shooting ability, especially from the line, could be improved if only he put in more effort.

From my previous post about the Mike McDonald story, this is most likely not true. I would be all ears if you want to refute a story from someone with average, at best, athletic attributes can shoot 90 out of 100, but one of the most athletic people on the planet can't... then I'd like to hear the reasoning.

[zambonir]

The one thing still doesn't prove or disprove the other. It's wrong to assume Ben isn't working hard enough to improve and also wrong to assume he won't continue to improve. What is correct is that he still hasn't improved enough. But also clearly, in-season, his coaches don't ask him to focus on his shooting, or draw up plays for him. And maybe, just maybe, they are smarter than we are, because this team changed GMs and coaches the new regime has pretty much the same approach to him.

Ben's salary matters, but he's still worth his salary exactly as is. Partly that's just because of how the NBA works. As far as that goes the issue remains the same - maybe he and Joel aren't the best possible combination of two star max-players. Or maybe - pretty obviously, I'd say - Harris is still not the right piece as the highest-paid player on the team.

I still go back to the fact that he's young. Kawhi accomplished more than Ben at a younger age, but he was on a much better team, and one that was already a dynasty. Ben's still three years younger than when Kawhi got to Toronto, and three years younger than when LeBron won his first championship - before which he had his own shooting issues.

The Sixers may yet give up on Ben if they feel pressure to win a title before Joel's next contract and can't do it (or if they are worried Joel won't even last through his next contract) but they'll probably regret it if so.

[LegoDoom]

The one thing still doesn't prove or disprove the other. It's wrong to assume Ben isn't working hard enough to improve and also wrong to assume he won't continue to improve. What is correct is that he still hasn't improved enough. But also clearly, in-season, his coaches don't ask him to focus on his shooting, or draw up plays for him. And maybe, just maybe, they are smarter than we are, because this team changed GMs and coaches the new regime has pretty much the same approach to him.

Counterpoint is that he shot worse this year and was less efficient. That can't be the case for a top player. And if you're a defensive player, then you have to be more efficient. If you're blaming it on the coaches, then they need to go (which we've been through).

I am not saying he's not working hard, but it's obviously possible to shoot accurately from 15' away from the basket with not a whole lot of effort. If Simmons could shoot 70-75% from the line it would make a huge difference.

I personally don't care how much Ben has put into his shooting, but it clearly doesn't show in his season stats. If he's putting a lot of effort, then it's not translating. I think that is what should translate to the fans.

[phillychuck]

You are totally missing the point of my post. I'm asking fans, subjectively, if they could make a 1 for 1 trade with Ben, today, who from the list I posted (people around his age or younger) would you trade him for? I'm making absolutely no comment about the draft itself. I'm just asking fans what THEY think they'd be willing to trade him for. It's interesting because it sort of focuses the complaining about his play, rather than comparing him to an abstract "what he could be" we're comparing him to his contemporaries.