2019 Phillies Spring Training Discussion

Philsmania 2019-02-14 15:35:06 UTC #1

Kingery vs. Franco for third base (in the event of no Machado)? Surprised by this one.

2019 Minor League Spring Training

zambonir 2019-02-14 18:26:01 UTC #2

Time will tell what really happens, even if they don't get Machado maybe they'll just trade Franco. The funny thing is, I always thought it was a perfectly fine idea to make Kingery into a Zobrist or Gonzalez-like super-sub. They problem is he never really had the chance to be used as one last year after Crawford got hurt, and McCutchen, Segura and Hernandez are not likely to get many off-days (and he'd be secondary to Quinn for OF chances anyway).

Kingery did actually appear at 3B 6 or 7 times last April. It's kind of hilarious really, last year they decided he was a better SS and Crawford was a better 3B and now they're flipping him again. Doesn't exactly do much for Franco's trade value either though there are also still so many FA 3B options out there.

allentown 2019-02-14 18:35:23 UTC #3

If the DL is coming to the NL sooner rather than later, as in 2020, I think the Phillies should keep Franco to DL and let him be an IF sub/PH in 2019. This actually provides the team with a lot of flexibility off the bench if they carry both Franco and Kingery as subs. Franco can play 3rd to spell Machado, or he can play 3B and Machado moves to SS in case of injury. Those scenarios are likely our most effective fill-in on the left side. Franco can also sub at 1B. For 2B, we have Kingery as sub and he likely can also sub in OF and be the second sub at 3B and SS.

Squire 2019-02-14 18:39:41 UTC #4

Franco had the second highest OPS on the Phillies last year and Kingery was one of the 5 worst hitters in baseball....so let's have an open competition.

zambonir 2019-02-14 19:03:30 UTC #5

I suspect the DH isn't coming until after the CBA. MLB doesn't want to give the union that for nothing.

I also think the Phillies are just done with Franco. And while he certainly looks good compared to Kingery, or even just compared to the whole offense last year, he still didn't really have that good a season. He had a monster July but was basically a .730 OPS player with a bad OBP the other four months (I'm not including September when he was hurt and especialy awful).

And factoring in defense, is not out of the question that a .700 OPS Kingery > a .700 OPS Franco. ZIPS has Franco doing better than that, with a 1.3 WAR (and Kingery with 0.7). We'll see, but if they sign Machado, keeping Franco on the bench as a RH batter when our 3B, 1B and (presumed) LF are all RH doesn't seem likely.

That they are still kind of stuck with (and stuck on) Kingery as a square peg is a whole other story.

fish 2019-02-14 19:28:50 UTC #6

I've never seen a team so reluctant to play their best prospect at his best position.

zambonir 2019-02-14 19:40:41 UTC #7

It really doesn't bother me. Teams do it all the time now. Heck, look at the Reds and Senzel. The Brewers just moved Shaw back to 3B but may yet return to him to 2B if they get someone else. I just wish it was working better.

Had Kingery played in April like he had in spring training, or even just had a good second half. Cesar probably would have gotten traded. But this whole saga will end if they do or don't sign Manny. If they don't get him it will determine the course of action this year and next in a more definitive way. Last year they were still waiting on him and still giving Crawford and Franco a chance. I still think Manny is their guy. Their very public interest in Harper is leverage on Manny to some extent.

I mean, hypothetical - if they sign Manny, would you trade Cesar as well as Franco and just install Kingery there to ride out his offensive struggles? I think not yet.

bkeich 2019-02-14 20:23:50 UTC #8

But you are forgetting injuries. The odds of one of Franco, Segura, Hernandez or an OF being hurt are very high for any particular game. Counting on Quinn is of course highly, highly suspect, if he was available for 80 games that alone might be good luck. Just like Williams last year and Altherr the year before, if Kingery plays well he will get his chances if he is healthy, there are always opportunities when you only have 4 or 5 bench players.

I like the idea of Kingery being a Super Sub, and honestly I wouldnt be surprised if that resulted in 120 starts if he is healthy.

That isnt really my read of what is going on, but I really hope you are right. I would strongly prefer Manny

andyb 2019-02-14 20:36:45 UTC #9

The Phillies also did not really bring anyone else into Spring Training that seems capable of being the middle infield reserve. Phil Gosselin, Andrew Romine, Gregorio Petit, Gift Ngoepe. These guys are emergency AAA guys at best.

I think they fully intend to have Kingery as a supersub and will get him 300-400 AB even with few injuries. One start a week at 2B, SS, and 3B and lots of double switches after the 6th or 7th inning. If Kingery went out and won a job over Franco that to me is a sign that Franco might be on the way out even if they don't get Machado.

EDmuch 2019-02-14 20:41:38 UTC #10

The idea of competition between Franco and Kingery is silly. Kingery was almost historically bad as a hitter. I wish they would stop jerking Franco around.

zambonir 2019-02-14 20:45:22 UTC #11

I don't know that I would say that. Hernandez has no history of being injury-prone. He got hit by a foul ball. Franco dove into a dugout late last season but had topped 150 games his previous two years.

But I agree, injuries happen, and Kingery will get his looks one way or another. As Andy notes he is basically the back-up SS too, so it will be more revealing to see who that 4th bench spot goes to. Another versatile fielder, or a bat?

I think the perception that the Phillies are more interested in Harper is solely because Harper (and Boras) soak up all of the media attention. I wouldn't recognize Dan Lozano if he knocked on my door right now.

andyb 2019-02-14 21:02:11 UTC #12

The fight for the last bench spot will certainly be interesting and could involve someone not with the team now. And of course signing Machado (Franco) and Harper (Williams/Herrera/Quinn) might enable them to trade someone currently on the roster.

I will be curious to see how much infield Quinn plays this Spring. That could be a factor in whether a second infield reserve is needed.

Philsmania 2019-02-14 21:28:55 UTC #13

I do get the impression that Kapler really, really likes Kingery and wants him in the lineup everyday. And, he really likes Hernandez too, so 2B is not an option. So, he played him at SS last season and is looking to slot him in at 3B this season.

zambonir 2019-02-14 21:29:12 UTC #14

If Franco could even play Asdrubel Cabrera-level SS and 2B he could be a completely different role player. Though it still seems untenable to have both him and Kingery as RHBs.

The unmade trade of the unknown position player could easily be for a major leaguer. Swap Franco for a LHB or Williams for an IF. They also still might trade a reliever.

Odds are, some other team out there has their own Aaron Altherr (or Franco/Williams) that won't actually survive spring training on the 25.

The question of who likes Kingery more, Kapler, or Klentak, remains interesting. Or they are in perfect alignment.

andyb 2019-02-14 21:38:57 UTC #15

Kingery was kind of the teacher's pet last year so I would venture that Kapler likes him more. That impression was not just based on him playing SS over Crawford when both were healthy. While he got demoted to 7th and 8th in the lineup in the second half of the season, he batted 3rd 8 times, 5th 9 times, and 6th 36 times last year when he was in the lineup. He was often hitting ahead of Franco in the lineup when Franco was clearly having a better offensive year by June.

I think both Kapler and Klentak love Kingery. They just forgot to give him that last half year of development.

zambonir 2019-02-14 21:49:06 UTC #16

IIRC Kapler definitely lobbied Klentak to keep him on the 25 and not manipulate his service time, which is what led to the contract. After that it remains an open question whether the contract itself led to the favorite-son treatment (over both JP and Franco) or if Kapler just liked him. Of course they kept claiming he graded out pretty well at SS - but then they replaced him with a guy who didn't turn out to be better anyway.

andyb 2019-02-14 22:11:27 UTC #17

That is true, but the other side of the coin is that he did earn the job in Spring Training last year and it was good organizational politics to take the service time manipulation off the table.

Where this logic goes awry of course, is that he simply did not play that well. Maybe he was not ready for the multi-position defensive role. Maybe he was still learning at the plate. The organization still put him in prominent lineup positions for a couple of months after seeing he was not hitting. They did a good thing for him with the contract, then seemed to base their playing time on that contract more than the results on the field.

zambonir 2019-02-14 22:23:35 UTC #18

Agreed. I never understood why the contract made him undemotable, even for PR reasons. No different than demoting a Dom Brown (or a Chase Utley back in the day even if that shouldn't have happened). Sometimes it's a normal part of development.

That said, a great spring training just might not mean anything, as many a bench and AAAA player has shown. If they had chosen to not sign him/demote him, it was perfectly justifiable based on his overall minor league record and limited time spent in AAA, not simply as manipulation. He's not Kris Bryant or Vlad Jr.

andyb 2019-02-14 22:56:56 UTC #19

And Vlad Jr. probably sees a few weeks in the minors this year to delay his free agency. He probably will not sign a quick deal like Kingery just because his could be for so much more if he plays as well as anticipated.

zambonir 2019-02-14 23:00:39 UTC #20

For sure he will be manipulated. And he's only 19 years old, with 30 games in AAA. But .943 career OPS. Kingery's was .778. That counts more than one spring training.