2017 Season Phillies Discussion (News/Notes, etc.), continued

[California_Dreamin]

Actually this is very much what they are planning on doing. There was an article in the Miami sports pages a couple of days ago that indicated the Marlins are deeply in debt and Jeter and Co. plan on having a payroll of 50 million dollars next year [yes, 50 million, which would be the smallest in baseball.] They know they have to move Stanton...and the Phils were mentioned as one of 4 teams [Cards and Giants are two others] who have made bids on him already.

This Stanton to Philadelphia story has legs, though I simply doubt Stanton would approve of a deal to the Phillies. Expect this story to get more traction during the off season as most baseball experts feel the Phillies [as do the Yankees] have both the prospects and money to make a Stanton deal.

Personally I am ambivalent about the deal as I can see both sides of the argument. On one hand a Stanton/Yelich duo would add instant credibility and talent to a lineup that already should have some bashers. On the other hand, it will cost at least Williams/Altherr and a couple of other youngsters and I am starting to really like the Phillie core.

[schillingfan]

The main thing I learned reading this thread is that there is no single path to building a championship team and it is a silly argument as the circumstances are different for every team.

[EDmuch]

As I think about the possibility of acquiring Stanton and Yelich, I have to go against it. Adding them would change the entire nature of the "re-build". It would not longer be about progress to 2020. It would be about NOW. An outfield of Stanton, Herrera and Yelich would be probably the best in MLB. We would be expected to contend, not just compete, NEXT YEAR as in 2018. Hoskins, Crwaford, Kingery would be under the immediate pressure of playoff expectations. And frankly, I see almost no possible way that we could obtain the pitching staff to go along with the All Star Outfield. If they do go after Stanton and Yelich, then they better be prepared to go after both Darvish and Lynn.

Thus, to me it seems that adding Stanton and Yelich would be too much, too fast.

[bigegypt0417]

The main thing I learned reading this thread is that there is no single path to building a championship team and it is a silly argument as the circumstances are different for every team.

And all avenues should be used...

[allentown]

And all avenues should be used

Exactly.

[Philsmania]

If it's true that the Marlins ownership is broke, MLB should vote down the transfer and Loria should sell to Jorge Mas.

[rkeden]

Good thing the Clearwater season is over as we may have to rename the location Highwater. The storm has shifted to the West and Clearwater and it's beautiful facility may be right in the wrong place.

[Lucky_Beagle]

After catching up on tonight's game and seeing the offense put up 7 runs (and could have been more) in what is looking like another lose. I am with those who are thinking leave the offense alone for another year and focus on pitching. I am sure though if we looked through the game logs we would find a few games lost 2-1, 3-2 etc.

[bkox]

If it's true that the Marlins ownership is broke, MLB should vote down the transfer and Loria should sell to Jorge Mas.

Sherman/Jeter plan to reduce payroll, says contacted investor

[California_Dreamin]

Giants beat White Sox tonight, so the Phils lead the 1.1 race by 1.5 games now, Sox are second and the Giants are third. Someone mentioned the Tigers as threats but I don't see it, they are 8 games behind the Phils with 21 to play. Its a three team race.

[bkox]

Ryan M. Spaeder (theaceofspaeder)

[California_Dreamin]

Was reading a bit about tonight's Phils-Nats game and saw that Edwin Jackson was pitching for the Nats and how he has a lifetime 2-6 record against the Phillies.

This caused me to let out a big sigh and wonder how Philadelphia baseball history would have been changed if not for said Jackson and Game 4 of the 2011 playoffs against the Cardinals.

Jackson was a very [always has been] average hurler and was going against Roy Oswalt in a game that if the Phils won, they would advance to play the Brewers in the NL Championship round. As we all know, that 2011 team was loaded, won 102 games and was poised for a World Championship.

A double, triple and single for the first 3 hitters set the Phils up with a 2-0 lead but then Jackson inexplicably righted himself, shut the Phils out through the 6th and the Cards won 5-3, setting up the epic game 5, Halladay against Carpenter in Philly.

Boy, did that game chance history. Halladay was brilliant. probably for the last time in his career, but lost 1-0 and Howard tore his Achillies Heel on the final play of the game. Arguably Halladay and Howard both were lost in a game that few thought would need to be played.

All because Edwin Jackson, he of the average career and 2-6 lifetime record against Philadelphia, chose Game 4 to gather one of those rare wins.

Curious if it will even be mentioned tonight on the Phils broadcast. Doubtful, as baseball time moves forward, and history is rarely contemplated. But for those of us old enough to remember, or care, the collapse of 1964, Black Friday, and Edwin Jackson [with help from the stray black cat] will always be painful reminders of just what might have been....

[LoneStarPhan]

Yes, the Phillies sure seemed destined to win another World Series or two after the great 2008 win. Had they one at least one more in 2009, 2010, or 2011, that era would have been ever so much more satisfying that it has been for most of us. If fact, the 2008 team probably was not as strong as they were in the following years.

And as CD has posted above, the 2011 post season was the end of the era. The Phillies started the decline after that point and TPTB tried to patch that core of players for another run. They traded prospects for veteran players as a part of that effort at a cost to the future. Planning for the future should have been ongoing even as they were winning 102 games. Ideally, if and when they get back to the post season, I hope they will continue to work hard at filling the farm system with a steady stream of talent at all levels so that the ML team can remain competitive for post season play on a continuing basis. Certainly, some prospects can and should be used to keep the big league team competitive, but the system should be robust enough that they also continually add young talent from the system to the major league team.

[allentown]

I think that if we had won again that the owners would have been more willing to at least rebuild on the fly and gradually trade some of the golden era stars when their value was higher. With that in mind, two big ownership/upper management blunders stand out to me. The first was the owners enforcing the budget and requiring Amaro to salary dump Lee after trading for Halladay. That greatly reduced a very strong shot at going to the WS again and it was all over a single-year over budget of just $9 million. That was cheap and it was very stupid. I think that is the episode at the front of Middleton's mind when he said he was willing to spend what it took to win. The second big blunder was not spending on the farm and that was the final nail in the coffin, which doomed the franchise to over half a decade of bad teams. I think getting blown out in the first playoff series in 2011 with as good and as expensive a team as that was, coupled with the season ending with Howard lying on the firstbase line really messed up the heads of the owners and top management. A vain attempt to achieve in 2012 what should have been achieved in 2009-2011 was followed by the stupidity of the nostalgia express.

After 2008 Cholly seemed like a magical world beater, but 2009-2011 made him seem lacking -- all of those teams were stronger than the 2008 team. We went from over-achievers in the playoffs to under-performers, to severe under=performers, then we just stank in 2012, or at least .500 ball seemed that way at the time, before we experience far worse.

[jimbomill]

Oi! That's a sad memory
but true

[LoneStarPhan]

Looking back, the Lee trade after they traded for Doc just cannot be justified. Looking back, it just cannot be imagined how cheap the team was at that time. Saving less than ten million.

Now they pay every game for their mismanagement back then. They managed to go from sell outs every home game to crowds less than twenty thousand. How much revenue do they lose each game? I can only hope they are spending more now to feed the farm system and will soon be willing to spend on ML payroll to get the club back to regular post season contention.

A-town may be right that they would have been willing to spend more had they won another WS title back then, but by not spending more, they assured they would not win another WS title for a long time.

[bkox]

Matt Gelb (MattGelb)

[bkox]

Meghan Montemurro (M_Montemurro)

[Austinfan]

Yes. One run games tend to even out, we won too many last year, lost too many this year, we'll probably bounce back next year.

[julio]

Phillies (Phillies)

Phillies (Phillies)