The New Unending Flyers thread

[Austinfan]

To be fair, the team overachieved, then lost their starting goalie and four defensemen. Not too many teams could overcome that!

[zambonir]

Yup, but seems perfectly reasonable for Torts to still coach like the games matter. And if the main point of the season is to put future Flyers through the crucible they are still getting the full experience! Doesn't mean his decision or his process was necessarily right, but we'll see. I don't think you can see Couts is an established veteran whose own experience, process and routines are impeccable, because he just missed two seasons and has only ever been part of this flawed organization. Torts is actually coaching him. They both need to figure it out.

[LegoDoom]

Ok. My opinion is that these games don't matter. Torts has managed to ■■■■ off Frost and Coots. So young and old talented players. He'll probably be gone when the Flyers will be truly competitive and he only seems to annoy players for no reason.

[zambonir]

If things end up with Couts the way they have with Frost, sign me up!

[Austinfan]

While things went south quickly in Vancouver, Torts stayed 6-7 years at his other stops, and in CBJ, it was an incompetent GM that drove him out of town (who was recently fired). The idea that all his players hate him, just listen to Hartnell talk about him (amusement) or Martin St Louis (requested that Torts give the speech when he was inducted into TB HOF).

Some players don't like demanding coaches, others thrive.
Torts is actually better with a young team he can push, rather than veterans set in their ways (Hayes).
The problem with Couts is he simply doesn't fit the up tempo style Torts has installed, especially with a bunch of slow D-men who can't get back quickly. A move to wing is in his future once Briere adds a couple centers who can skate.

[zambonir]

'Challenge the coach': Tortorella's former players discuss where his...

Listen, I've been wearing a Flyers 14 since 2012. But I think Couts could have been back in the line-up last night if he and his agent had reacted to it differently.

All coaches wear out their welcome "after a while." Those are the guys who got fired after 2-3 years, and even then it's not always the smart move (certainly never is when the Flyers do it, at least in terms of the next coach never being better).

It's already pretty clear that's not going to happen here. Torts wants to finish this rebuild even if he's not on the bench for the last chapters of the story. That could mean finishing out his contract, moving upstairs after next season, or possibly even getting an extension. He's as powerful in the team office as the GM and the President.

[VoteForKalas]

Ok. My opinion is that these games don't matter. Torts has managed to ■■■■ off Frost and Coots. So young and old talented players. He'll probably be gone when the Flyers will be truly competitive and he only seems to annoy players for no reason.

Torts is here to develop the talent and mold them into a cohesive & effective team that hates to lose. He is trying to build the talent and culture foundation for a Flyers era of winning. Not an easy task by any measure, but one he has successfully done before as a coach in TB which is the most similar situation to the Flyers from his track record.

I agree he will likely not be here when they start making runs at the Cup (if that ever happens again) because that requires a different type of coach.

He does not annoy players for no reason - read above again for his mandate as the coach. Development of talent works in different ways for different players, but the bottom line is universal: work hard, eliminate distractions, be open to coaching, play your role in the system and support your teammates.

Torts is here to identify the players the Flyers can win & grow with and which players do not fit. Everything he says and does (with some exceptions as any human being) is focused on that mission.

Think of it as basic training for the armed forces - to build skilled and cohesive units that will perform in the field and get the job done requires filtering. If one cannot perform or chooses not to, they will be replaced by someone who can and wants to. Hockey is not combat, but winning in hockey is extremely difficult and requires total buy-in by every player and coach to even have a chance.

Coots is a veteran and should understand not only how the league works and how hard winning is, but the steep mountain the Flyers face in building this new foundation and the importance of his role in that process. He knows why Torts was hired and what the mission is - he suffered bad injuries, has earned major respect for coming back and now is one of the leaders for this team. He is inspirational and a very good player; hopefully he can help guide this group into the playoffs.

[Austinfan]

There's situational issues, Couts wasn't a problem when they had Walker, Seeler and Risto on the defense - because they could get back on defense which means if Couts was pushing action in the O-zone, he could be a half second late and they'd be in position. Now you have three rookies with below average speed and two washed up veterans in your bottom four defense, and Couts' lack of speed is more evident.

There's also a mismatch in line construction, who do you put with Couts? Briere will address this in the summer.

[zambonir]

But all of that is besides the point. Couts has to play better, and he has to play. Those are merely reasons why he has struggled and lost ice time. They are not the reasons he got scratched. And that needs to be resolved.

[Austinfan]

He got scratched b/c they were playing two fast teams that push the pace, and Laughton is faster at C (though with his own set of limitations). Cates played 4C in limited minutes, Couts could have done so. One of the funny things is the fan perception is that Deslauriers is slow, but Edge shows his top speed to be faster than Cates, Couts or Foerster - albeit in limited minutes, but he has been effective in those minutes.

[zambonir]

Yeah but if that was really the reason - and it may well be - it should have been discussed - privately or publicly or both.

[Austinfan]

Torts did discuss his struggles with him, and part of that was the pace of the game.
I think Couts can still play at a high level, but you have to play him with the right players around him and/or in the right role.
Mark Stone has a similar skill set, and is an elite winger.

Kopitar (top speed 21.45 v 21.47 for Couts) is still an effective center at 36, but he's playing with Byfield (23.70) and Kempe (23.53) - two fast, talented wingers.

[bkeich]

Flyers with a very nice win against the always classless Bruins. 1-0 lead with 10 minutes to go, give up the tying goal. Then Flyers score with 6 minutes to go, give up a horrible goal a minute later while they all watched on a 2-5 break. Then with 80 seconds to go a shocking goal and as usual the Bruins try and cheap shot players at the buzzer including a guy with his stick around the back of Laughton’s neck.

[Austinfan]

It was one of their best games of the season. Foerster is getting more confident, hit a post then a perfect shot in the upper right hand corner for the game winner. He's playing elite defense and now has 18 goals in his rookie season, top 6 forward going forward.

Couts was alright, on the "4th line" with Cates and Lycksell, though Torts was rotating the lines fairly evenly.

After a couple nice games, Brink struggled a little, a summer adding more strength and working on his straight line speed and I predict a breakout season next year, he's learning what it takes at the NHL level, not just pretty plays, but grinding along the boards.

The Flyers have been maligned for their development process, but when you can play top teams even with Zamula, Attard and Ginning as your D-men, you must be doing something right in the coaching department. Same with Foerster, Brinka nd Lycksell at forward. These young players are coming up from LHV fundamentally sound.

[LegoDoom]

Think of it as basic training for the armed forces - to build skilled and cohesive units that will perform in the field and get the job done requires filtering. If one cannot perform or chooses not to, they will be replaced by someone who can and wants to. Hockey is not combat, but winning in hockey is extremely difficult and requires total buy-in by every player and coach to even have a chance.

WTF should we ever think of it like that? You want your players to be drones? No, you want thinking players.

AF is talking about speed... has anyone watched one of Forsberg's games? Jagr's? Couts was never going to be top speed skater.

Torts is a joke.

[Austinfan]

The game has changed over the last decade, the rule changes have put a greater emphasis on speed and quickness, as smaller players can no longer be held and hooked on a regular basis.

This doesn't mean slower players can't function, Cates, Couts and Foerster are all slower than average, but all exceptional on defense. Rather, you need to structure a roster so you can balance smaller smart players with fast players. Give Couts faster wings, or move him to wing with a faster center. Improve the speed on defense so forwards don't have to get back as quickly, And so on.

[Aquapong]

I liked the play in yesterday’s game where Couts came off the end boards and took it right to the net. Use some power moves with that big frame of his.

Brink has some work to do before I write him in ink on the roster. Getting stronger is definitely his big need right now. Too many guys just push him off the puck on the boards.

[Aquapong]

Three weeks left in the regular season and the Caps are surging after Ovechkin seems to have regained his scoring touch. The Islanders haven’t taken advantage of the Flyers rough patch in our schedule and fell further behind.

Tough game tonight against the Rangers. They might be the team I’d least want to face in the 1st round.

[Austinfan]

It's easy to forget the Flyers are rebuilding, i mean with 3 D-men injured, Briere traded his best D-man for a 1st rd pick in the 2025 draft. He's still has his "eye on the prize," the team needs to accumulate assets, both to build depth and for trade bait.

So I'm not really concerned about making or going deep into the playoffs, enjoy the ride.
Frankly, I expect a minor regression next season as there is little available in LHV that's NHL ready, only Rizzo out of college if he signs, and NHL drafts are like baseball drafts (the top players make it faster, but the rest take 3-5 years).

Michkov is two years away, Bonk, Barkey, Sotheran, 3-4 years, the goalies they drafted last year 3-5 years.
So 2024-25 and 2025-26 depend on player development and finding some low cost assets in free agency and trades (like Poehling last season).
But the 2024 and 2025 drafts will strengthen a talent pipeline already ranked 6th in the NHL by Wheeler (best evaluator out there, writes for the Athletic) after losing Gauthier and graduating Ersson, Foerster, York.and Zamula.
So I don't mind a couple years of struggle if it sets them up for a decade of high level competition.

[Docs]

I agree with that in theory, but since they are so close and it appears only one of the Flyers, Red Wings or Capitals will miss out on the playoffs, at this point I hope they don't hit a bump and that they actually make the playoffs for that experience. They are holding their own so far during this tough 10 game stretch, all season long I've prepared myself for a let down, and I'm impressed that the team continues to play well enough to be in the race, i would like them to be rewarded for that effort. The difference between missing and making the playoffs will in all likelihood be at most a two spot swing in the draft - that's nothing. I am glad that they stayed on course as an organization, but missing out on the playoffs doesn't help the future at all.