The New New Unending Flyers thread

[zambonir]

Oh for some reason I thought he was further behind (like I said, not paying attention). That's crazy, it's almost exactly the same, and if he retires he'd be the same age. But if he doesn't he could still pad it for sure. Wayne only scored 9 goals his last season, and fewer than 30 in each of the two before that. Of course goals weren't even truly his thing, nobody's catching him for assists or points.

[Docs]

Correct, he tied the record in one fewer games played.

[LegoDoom]

if he were to play as many games as Gretzky did he'd leave the record far in the dust

With his next game, tomorrow, wouldn't Ovi have played as many games as Gretzky? even if he scores 5 goals, I wouldn't say that's "in the dust".

Yes. Gretzky was such a freak, as is Crosby, but Ovi's goals after 30 is fairly crazy

[Docs]

When Gretzky came up there was a rule that you had to be 20 to play in the NHL, so he played for the long defunct WHL at 18 and 19. He scored around 50 goals in his NHL rookie season at the age of 20, wonder how many more goals and points he would have if he came into the league at 18.

[zambonir]

Wayne was 19 when the Oilers joined the NHL (and he won the Hart). Ovi was also 19 - turned 20 his rookie season but had already played four seasons in Russia . His numbers back home weren't gaudy (unlike Wayne's one season in WHA), but he presumably could have played for the Caps a year or two earlier.

I guess they both had lockout seasons, but Ovi also had the Covid season.

All of which is why it's cool the comparison is so clean (unlike the NFL season rushing record, for instance).

[flyers19rw]

This run for the most goals by Ovechkin leaves me cold. They are not close to being of equal value.
Ovechkin is the gunner of all time-right now at 6847 SOG for a 13.1 shooting percentage.
Gretzky only had 5088 SOG for a 17.6 SP. Ovechkin has only 724 career assists while Gretzky had 1963. They are two totally different types of players. Obviously Gretzky was a much more valuable player to his team and has the SC wins to prove it.

[Squire]

This may sound silly and you can definitely counter by saying "well he has no choice" but Ovechkin's relationship with Putin makes me not like him. At all. Then again Gretzky has aligned himself with the current totalitarian regime in the White House so f him too.

[LegoDoom]

My hat is off to you for being a fan of the NHL and a great player separate from the Flyers. For me he is so emblematic of a terrible Flyers century (if maybe a bit less so than the Penguins) that I haven't taken much interest in the chase. Like if Chipper Jones was gonna have the home run record.

The amazing thing is he's only played for one team and if he were to play as many games as Gretzky did he'd leave the record far in the dust (just as Wayne would have to Howe, and still did).

Gretzky is in part when I started getting into hockey... and it had nothing to do with him. A rich college floormate took us to a Red Wings - Blues game in 1996. 6th row behind the net and I was hooked ever since. I really wish I would have gotten into the sport earlier, but I did co-own a hockey website for a while and I hope it has done some good. I also wish I would have appreciated it more at the time as that Detroit team was stacked... and the Blues had Gretzky, Hull, MacInnis, and Pronger at the the time (for an average season... although they were competitive in the playoffs).

But don't give me too much credit, I still very much dislike Crosby even though I respect his game.

I've seen Ovi a few times. This was from 2011 when Pronger was on the Flyers. I don't get hating other teams (not saying I have to like them). I had a friendly chat with the two fans the row in front of us in Caps jerseys and hope that they respected an actual hockey conversation between opposing team fans.

[LegoDoom]

Also a not so fun fact about that Ovi game. I skipped out on a dinner with my girlfriend and her two friends because a partner at my law firm gave me the seats and I didn't want him to think I wasn't grateful if I turned him down. I offered to take my girlfriend and her friends. They declined. We broke up like a week later.

[zambonir]

Ha yeah I was going to bring that up too. No doubt, I have not paid Ovi any mind for years because of that. His relationship definitely goes beyond just being an obedient citizen. And Gretz is just terrible. But, not much wiggle room to care about the Flyers either by that criteria (from the dead owner to many players I'm sure).

[LegoDoom]

I very much do not want to make this political, but between hazing and NHL players boycotting pride night, then you probably should not watch hockey.

[zambonir]

The goals record is still the goals record, but that's all it is. Nobody thinks Ovi was better than Wayne. He might not even be better than Jagr (or Howe).But still great.

Same goes for the guy who hit the most singles or the most home runs in baseball versus some other players, they weren't the best players of all-time (well, Bonds might have been but that's complicated too).

[zambonir]

You are correct, and yet, there was a time when being a Flyers fan meant cheering on our players assaulting a Russian player. It was all politics.

And of course Ovi and his countrymen remain banned from international play. Which our current President probably wants to undo. Or maybe our team will be banned next. (okay, sorry now it's politics thread stuff.)

[andyb]

They are not close to being of equal value.
Ovechkin is the gunner of all time-right now at 6847 SOG for a 13.1 shooting percentage.
Gretzky only had 5088 SOG for a 17.6 SP. Ovechkin has only 724 career assists while Gretzky had 1963

This is true of course. Gretzky was a much more well-rounded figure with more of a 2-way game and obviously a better passer. But the shooting percentage stats are meaningless too. Ovi generates more shots and that is a good thing. His shooting percentage is also lower because scoring was much easier in his era. Look at league save percentages by year:

NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com

Save percentages got as low as 873 early in Gretzky's career. They have generally been around .910 in the Ovechkin era (actually slipping to .900 this year). Goalies got bigger and better. Their equipment also grew with larger padding till the league put some standards in.

If Ovechkin played in Gretzky's era he'd be way over 1,000 goals by now. He is still the inferior player, but he is also far superior at one thing and that is scoring goals.

[zambonir]

If Ovechkin played in Gretzky's era he'd be way over 1,000 goals by now. He is still the inferior player, but he is also far superior at one thing and that is scoring goals.

And he's not even the only guy who was. But that's why record books are one thing and barroom (or internet) debates are another.

[LegoDoom]

This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I think that Ilya Kovalchuk might be one of the best offensive players ever (and I know stats won't back that up). He is one of the only players who can score from almost anywhere on the other side of the red line.

Kovalev is up there for me as well, but he had a weird career arc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4jnzrPOqVQ

As an aside, I used to know the warrior/bauer rep. His name was Michael Hunt. He went by Mike.

[flyers19rw]

For me Ovechkin's record is a Sports Center award. All that is emphasized on that show is the goal. Assists, defense and other skills are downplayed with the focus being on the goal scorers. SC and much of the hockey media is gaga focusing on this record while the rest of the game is getting downplayed.
With Ovechkin comes a record comprised of goals and longevity. Good for him. However when the totality of his game, including his offense, is compared to many others,(Kovalchuk, Bossy, Jagr, et al.) it pales. Right now he can claim that he was the greatest gunner of all time. Let's stick with that.

[LegoDoom]

I'm fairly sure Bure beats him as a gunner. Ovi's shot is too good to be put in that category as is evidenced by his PP goals.

I'm not even sure Ovi has a better one timer than Brett Hull or Kovalchuk.

Having one of the best shots on the ice and the other team trying to stop that, and then scoring the most goals in NHL history, means a lot more than you are giving credit.

[zambonir]

Hey at least hockey is actually on Sportscenter (not because of this, because they started airing the league again).

[andyb]

Baseball may not even be on Sportscenter next year.