The 2018 Phillies managerial search

[schillingfan]

Curt Schilling is too out of control and toxic to be a pitching coach these days. CD is right that as a pitcher he was a student of the game. He was way ahead of his time, too, establishing a dietary regimen and a pilates routine back around 2000 realizing age would have its toll. He also worked with a sports psychologist to work on focus and learned a routine to break down the game to each individual pitch. He kept videos from each game and studied them. When he went to Arizona he gave one to Randy Johnson who didn't see the point. He also worked with Brandon Webb when he came up as a rookie showing him his computer analysis and but for injury Webb would have been a star. Webb gave credit to Curt as his mentor.

While not an analytics guy as we define it, if he had started coaching when he retired,ego aside, he would have been ahead of his time. Now he's just gone off the rails.

[Philsmania]

Curt Schilling is too out of control and toxic to be a pitching coach these days. CD is right that as a pitcher he was a student of the game. He was way ahead of his time, too, establishing a dietary regimen and a pilates routine back around 2000 realizing age would have its toll. He also worked with a sports psychologist to work on focus and learned a routine to break down the game to each individual pitch. He kept videos from each game and studied them. When he went to Arizona he gave one to Randy Johnson who didn't see the point. He also worked with Brandon Webb when he came up as a rookie showing him his computer analysis and but for injury Webb would have been a star. Webb gave credit to Curt as his mentor.

While not an analytics guy as we define it, if he had started coaching when he retired,ego aside, he would have been ahead of his time. Now he's just gone off the rails.

I got to imagine, considering his out-of-control mouth, he would probably have a tendency to proverbially throw under the bus any pupil who ever doesn't listen to him.

[Philsmania]

Ironic, though, that Kapler had baggage too. This seems like something Curt could talk about on the radio. Also interesting that Francona's son worked for Klentak.

Phillies accept findings that cleared Gabe Kapler in probe of Nick Francona...

I can't help but wonder if the old Phillies front office would have been spooked away by this though they obviously weren't about Pete Rose.

Nick Francona now works for the Mets. Spice for the rivalry? Probably not but....

[Austinfan]

The other problem with Schilling as pitching coach is that he was too talented.
It's harder for talented players to relate to the "normal" player, even when they're students of the game, it's relative to their talents.

"Mediocre" players tend to make better coaches in most sports because they're self-selected to be careful observers, since if they couldn't figure out how to maximize their limited talents they wouldn't even have careers. And because they couldn't just rear back and blow it by guys, they had to understand hitters and how to play them.

These days you also want coaches who are comfortable with technology and analytics, spin rates, using stop action film to analyze mechanics, and so on.

[bigegypt0417]

The other problem with Schilling as pitching coach is that he was too talented.
It's harder for talented players to relate to the "normal" player, even when they're students of the game, it's relative to their talents.

"Mediocre" players tend to make better coaches in most sports because they're self-selected to be careful observers, since if they couldn't figure out how to maximize their limited talents they wouldn't even have careers. And because they couldn't just rear back and blow it by guys, they had to understand hitters and how to play them.

These days you also want coaches who are comfortable with technology and analytics, spin rates, using stop action film to analyze mechanics, and so on.

Holy anecdote.

[zambonir]

As I suspected, while "organic" doesn't automatically equal healthy (or natural, or humane), the negative reaction to Kapler's decision was because he took the junk food and soda out of the clubhouse. I think the players can pay for that stuff themselves.

The Phillies should still be happy to provide cheesesteaks to the opposing clubhouse though!

Dodgers going organic this season

[Philsmania]

The other problem with Schilling as pitching coach is that he was too talented.
It's harder for talented players to relate to the "normal" player, even when they're students of the game, it's relative to their talents.

"Mediocre" players tend to make better coaches in most sports because they're self-selected to be careful observers, since if they couldn't figure out how to maximize their limited talents they wouldn't even have careers. And because they couldn't just rear back and blow it by guys, they had to understand hitters and how to play them.

These days you also want coaches who are comfortable with technology and analytics, spin rates, using stop action film to analyze mechanics, and so on.

Holy anecdote.

I do tend to agree with him, actually. There does seem to be a trend of great players falling flat on their faces as coaches or managers. Of course, there are exceptions. Larry Bird comes to mind as one and I guess Mike Ditka comes to mind as another. But yes, great players turned successful coaches seem to be few and far between. I always chalk it up to great players having such superior talent that success kind of came to them and they simply cannot comprehend that most other players have to learn and work at it more than they did. In the end, they don't know what they have to teach (since they never had to learn it) and grow incredulous when it doesn't come easy to their players.

[bigegypt0417]

The other problem with Schilling as pitching coach is that he was too talented.
It's harder for talented players to relate to the "normal" player, even when they're students of the game, it's relative to their talents.

"Mediocre" players tend to make better coaches in most sports because they're self-selected to be careful observers, since if they couldn't figure out how to maximize their limited talents they wouldn't even have careers. And because they couldn't just rear back and blow it by guys, they had to understand hitters and how to play them.

These days you also want coaches who are comfortable with technology and analytics, spin rates, using stop action film to analyze mechanics, and so on.

Holy anecdote.

I do tend to agree with him, actually. There does seem to be a trend of great players falling flat on their faces as coaches or managers. Of course, there are exceptions. Larry Bird comes to mind as one and I guess Mike Ditka comes to mind as another. But yes, great players turned successful coaches seem to be few and far between. I always chalk it up to great players having such superior talent that success kind of came to them and they simply cannot comprehend that most other players have to learn and work at it more than they did. In the end, they don't know what they have to teach (since they never had to learn it) and grow incredulous when it doesn't come easy to their players.

I think the question you should ask is how many stars/great players want to go in to coaching. I think there is a difference between what he's saying and the realities.

[Austinfan]

It's more how many stars want to pay their dues as coaches, many are happy to coach if they can start at the top, but aren't willing to ride buses and learn the ropes.
When you're a multi-millionaire who is used to having your ego stroked, it takes a special person to start at the bottom.
That might be the most amazing thing about MJ trying to become a baseball player, that he was willing to pay those dues (to no avail).

[allentown]

It's more how many stars want to pay their dues as coaches, many are happy to coach if they can start at the top, but aren't willing to ride buses and learn the ropes.

This is certainly true. Mike Schmidt wanted to be a coach, but not that sort of coach. With many $millions invested comes a great desire to live better than that.

A bigger question, pertinent with our just hiring a first-time manager, is whether this 'paying your dues' is actually necessary or just a part of the hierarchical system throughout various parts of baseball and each silo's disdain for those who excel in a neighboring silo jumping above them in their silo. If Schmidt understands hitting, has theories on hitting developed over a long HOF career, has good communication skills and the ability to explain his hitting theories in easily understood terms, and the patience to sit back and watch his pupils SLOWLY progress from practice to consistently adopting his teaching within actual games -- then why shouldn't he be able to jump right into teaching hitting at an MLB level.

I think the Phillies as an organization have been inordinately fixated on players and others having to pay their dues, before they can be allowed to do what they are able to do. That's one reason I see our first-time manager as a positive change. Coming from outside our org is also a plus. Coming from the very successful and very aggressive Dodgers organization is also a plus. If you want to build a winner and have that team, which is capable of winning, actually win then it has to be pedal to the metal all the time.

Pay your dues is the epitome of old school thought.

[Austinfan]

I think it's more than old school.
You learn by doing, and when you're 20 years away from your minor league days, and with little current experience with 18-22 year olds, riding a bus with kids and dealing with them on an every day basis is an important teaching experience.
Not saying you have to do that for two decades, but it does help to have a few years of experience coaching at different levels.

One thing I like about Kapler's experience is he not only managed in the minors, but as head of player development he was interacting with coaches and players at all levels of the organization. That hopefully gave him a feel for the kids of today and the issues with developing them.

[zambonir]

I'd say it could be anecdotal and also correct. It's definitely conventional wisdom. The fact is many, many more non-stars choose to go into coaching. That could also be because they didn't make nearly as much money as players, haven't gone into TV or been gifted car dealerships and beer distributors. There just haven't been enough stars in coaching to make a fair comparison, I'd think. Off the top of my head a lot of them also seem to prefer or do better as GMs. In hockey, you also see a lot of truly journeymen guys, in come cases guys who never even made it to the NHL, who succeed as coaches.

For sure, Kapler's ability to relate to today's young player is probably almost as important as his analytics background. Even Wathan probably seems like more of an authority figure. One of the articles talked about how he regular texted with Dodgers minor leaguers, which is probably I think he won't be able to do in the same way as a manager.

[jimbomill]

Kapler's interaction with players has to pale in comparison to Wathan's. I'm not buying that as a deciding factor.
What you say about the Stars' not going into coaching makes sense.

[Philsmania]

It would be stretch to say that Kapler was a star. Very solid fourth or fifth outfielder but probably not a star.

[zambonir]

I'd put him in the non-star category for sure. Total journeyman. 57th-round pick. Was pretty much out of the game on merit when he managed that one year.

[jimbomill]

I don't think anyone was saying Mr. Kotter/Kapler was a star.

[Philsmania]

Here's a link to the press conference...

Philadelphia Phillies

[FMcB]

Glad to see new blood with Kapler coming in. Whether it will work or not in this case, its way too early to tell. They either hit a HR here or struck out probably.

Was at a Phils game in Sept and was looking in the dugout and couldn't help but notice all the coaches had some link from the past career with the Phils...while it's nice to see some old timers around, this ain't 'Old Timers Day'...should be those who are the best for the group of players on hand, not if they played for the Phils once upon a time.

[zambonir]

The Astros actually got it wrong before they got it right, so you never know.

But it's mostly gonna be about the talent anyway, I think you have to really get to a certain level before the manager makes a difference (just like a closer, or that one extra starting pitcher). Inasmuch as the manager ever really controls any one game, I reckon he'll win as many with his analytics/new-school thinking as he loses with his inexperience (still just 2 or 3 in each column I figure).

[donaldorc]

I like this guy. Intelligent, articulate, composed, confident. I'm betting he'll do a great job.