Should Kapler Be Fired?

[LoneStarPhan]

Sometimes firing the manager works but not always. The problems we have seen last season and this season may require a different fix. Of course, they may try multiple approaches to trying to get a team that can win over 90 games in a season.

[xogfog]

His first year yielded an epic collapse of historic proportions ending in a lackluster third place finish. He then follows that up, with a more talented team, to an even more disappointing 4th place standing where being over .500 for the first time since 2011 is now the goal with a handful of games left. Color me underwhelmed.

He also seemed to play his AAAA friend, Mr. Rodriguez more than any other manager that would understand the talent on his roster would have, totally bush league. Send him packing.

[phillychuck]

I don't have any problem with firing him, but you'd better have a superior replacement in mind. Personally, I don't like any of the re-treads.

[fish]

I’d like him to have the comfort of knowing his GM was fired before he was. I think there is a good chance he becomes Francona 2.0 somewhere else, but the post-game interviews have been about as honest as White House press briefings. I just can’t bring myself to believe that some who can shovel bs that thick actually knows what they’re doing.

[zambonir]

Sean Rodriguez had 105 ABs. The Phillies have played worst guys than him more than that every season I have been alive. He was a bench/utility player on a team with myriad injuries and failed starters who actually performed quite well (positive WAR, raked against lefties) for a certain period of time. There's plenty of things to second-guess about Kapler but that's not one of them (and despite the perception that they were buddies from Tampa he also doesn't get to pick who makes the roster).

I agree Kapler's public persona is an issue. He just can't show the sort emotion Philly wants, and that doesn't mean he has to be Dallas Green, but it's a "don't ■■■■ me on leg and tell me it's raining" sort of thing.

I'll be fascinated to see what happens. The GM isn't going anywhere so will he be pressured to make this move, and if he is, will there be additional pressure to hire a veteran manager, or will he get to hire another whiz kid type? What about Wathan?

I do think what happens to Maddon bears watching. If he's unemployed it might make a difference.

This finish definitely complicates things. Perception matters. The final record matters. I don't think the team has given up and at the end of the day this bullpen and rotation shouldn't win 40% of its games anyway (and that's including good starts from Nola) but the higher-ups sold the "we're still in contention" thing for much of the season.

[Lawman]

I'm not sure that Kapler has done a poor enough job to warrant firing.

We expected them to be finish slightyl above .500, and they're going to finish ~.500. So, purely from a record point of view, they're right around where we though they were going to be. I don't think he's managed the bullpen particularly well, but that's crapshoot that any manager will handle it better. Bullpen misuse is rampant in baseball. That the team didn't improve under his watch? Is that a manager issue, a coaching issue, a talent issue, or organizational philosophy issue?

I have no problem if they want to move on from him, but bringing him back is not problematic either.

[phillychuck]

I don't know if Klentak or Kapler is responsible for the player-by-player mediocre performances based on their own standards, or if it's just luck. As shown in many other posts, with the exception of possibly Cutch, Kingery, Harper and Realmuto, who were about where they would be expected to perform, every other regular or semi-regular performed below expectation. So we had a lot of guys doing what they were supposed to do or worse.

Contrast that with the Yankees, who got career years out of Lemahieu (from scrub to all-star), Urshela (all-star stats in a 50% role), Torres, Tauchman, and Voit, and got strong years from Judge (when healthy), Sanchez, Maybin, Gardner, Encarnacion, and Frazier. How do all these players have career years or above average years, when we barely have any players performing at their career average? Is it management? Or luck?

And they got decent years out of some bleh pitchers, too.

[kmc1019]

I'm ambivalent about Kapler being fired, but I think he will be canned on account of ownership and the front office needing to make a case for optimism to a fan base that will be reluctant to buy tickets to see this same team again next year.

Arguments for keeping Kapler are that the talent gap between the Phillies and both the Braves and Nats are not his fault, nor are the unusually high number of bullpen assets lost early and for the duration.
Arguments for firing Kapler are the team not improving despite spending half a billion dollars last year as well as the team not showing up for games against the Marlins (and also after days off, though that is my perception and have not researched the numbers).

His best chances for remaining in place are probably: 1) vote of confidence from Harper, and 2) if Middleton is committed to pay what is necessary to land multiple big-name free agents a la Cole and Rendon.

[bigegypt0417]

I don't have any problem with firing him, but you'd better have a superior replacement in mind. Personally, I don't like any of the re-treads.

Since it sounds like Madden is done in Chicago I would be in favor of him.

Gabe Kapler will be a good manager one day...it's just not going to be with the phillies.

[el-pietro]

I don't think hes the reason the team is where it is, I'm not convinced managers can have much of an impact really but I don't see his position as tenable at this point. He never got the fans onside, and hes presided over two collapses in the second half of the season.

There are mitigating circumstances including injuries, but when the fanbase is so against you its just not worth fighting it. I suspect they go and hire someone who will do the same things as Kapler but who presents a different face to the media and fans. Some out of shape dude who chews tobacco and who will say yep we're bad when the team is bad.

The more important question is about those above him. Why did our pitching get worse when they promoted Young in favour of Kranitz? Why did so many hitters have down years, why did so many players get better after leaving Philadelphia? Why have we had so little production from the farm? Maybe Klentak has addressed these problems already and we'll start to see results in the next few years but there will be a cloud over Klentak until/unless the team starts winning.

[julio]

but when the fanbase is so against you

Is the fanbase really "against" Kapler? How do we know this? Yeah, there are some outspoken individuals here, and undoubtedly a few outspoken "regulars" who call into WIP. Most of these individuals have records of being outspoken opponents of pretty much everything any Phillies official (manager, GM, President, etc.) has ever done. Explore the archives.

So, is this opposition real? Or is it just the choir (a very small choir) preaching to itself?

[fish]

I think there is one certainty- either Klentak or Kapler has to go. They have to. They can't keep this crew together and blame a repeat of last year on injuries and excuses. This is not a young team ready to take the next step forward, this is a team with players who are what they are. Public perception is shot to ■■■■ and all the optimism and good will bought last winter is gone. Klentak is most deserving of being fired, but if he goes then Kapler goes so the new GM get's his guy. We'll learn what kind of x-factor Middleton is soon enough. Will he be embarrassed and PO'd about the mess this club looks like enough to do something, or is there something about keeping Klentak that makes him feel like he's saving face?

[Ric20]

Wow so what you are saying is Klentak needs to go also glad I was able to say it for you !

[Ric20]

Where do you live polls have been taken at least 82% want him gone in every poll .

[andyb]

The case against Kapler is more nuanced than a case against his specific decisions like with Sean Rodriguez. In is more likely based on whether he has gotten the most out of this roster and whether they like and play hard for him. Obviously a continued descent below .500 will not help, but winning 84 instead of 88 games could easily have been explained by injuries.

In my mind the case against Klentak is a little more clear. I think he has done poorly on the big things but then pretty well on smaller transactions. Big things would include his larger trades and free agent signings (the Harper one looks good, but everything on the next level from Santana to Arrieta to the relievers looks less good), and the growth of the minor league system. GMs usually get a longer leash though, so it seems that Kapler would be the more likely one to go. Probably 50-50 at this point while Klentak is more 80-20 likely to stay.

[julio]

I think he has done poorly on the big things but then pretty well on smaller transactions. Big things would include his larger trades and free agent signings (the Harper one looks good, but everything on the next level from Santana to Arrieta to the relievers looks less good)

You're defining the $50 million Andrew McCutchen signing as a "smaller transaction," then? Or arguing that, because of Cutch's knee injury, the signing was "less good"?

[andyb]

You're defining the $50 million Andrew McCutchen signing as a "smaller transaction," then? Or arguing that, because of Cutch's knee injury, the signing was "less good"?

That transaction is probably in the middle. Good idea. Bad result because the player got hurt which is always a risk signing a 32-year-old free agent. I also consider that transaction as an extra $20 million a year we had to spend to make up for the clear Santana mistake the year before. So while it was generally a good transaction if everything worked out, the result was poor.

That transaction does not help or hurt a case against Klentak. It is more a case against the overall vision that Klentak had for this roster. The Santana signing coupled with the 2 trades for Segura and Realmuto helped remake the roster into an older, more expensive one that did not make the playoffs. When I say big things it is more about the vision of this roster and that started with committing $60 million to Santana and then forcing a trade where we arguably did not get enough, causing us to sign a replacement bat in Cutch, and then falling short of the playoffs when that older roster got hurt.

It is a big picture case when you can defend individual transactions in isolation (like the Segura deal) that look less good with a wider lens.

[xogfog]

I think retreads is a harsh term. There are some pedigreed guys that could be out there. It's not like Girardi and Scioscia have bounced around managing several teams and are fossils. Girardi is only 54, Scioscia is 60. I'd take either of those guys in a heartbeat. Maddon, if available, might not be a fit here, as his wacky antics might not play here, especially coming off of Kapler and his Cali cool act. Tito, although a long shot to be let go, if Cleveland misses the playoffs it's possible. Bottom line, if you are going to spend this much for a team, you might as well go get a known quantity rather that try to find the next "wonder boy".

[allentown]

I don't know how much of this is Kapler's fault. The problems seem organization-wide, so I focus more blame on Klentak and MacPhail, who have fostered a go-slow, constant churn approach to change and seem allergic to using the team's full financial resources.

[schillingfan]

but when the fanbase is so against you

Is the fanbase really "against" Kapler? How do we know this? Yeah, there are some outspoken individuals here, and undoubtedly a few outspoken "regulars" who call into WIP. Most of these individuals have records of being outspoken opponents of pretty much everything any Phillies official (manager, GM, President, etc.) has ever done. Explore the archives.

So, is this opposition real? Or is it just the choir (a very small choir) preaching to itself?

It’s the noisy part of the fan base. They will always be there. I guess I’m not a good fan, or maybe because I’m not in Philadelphia, but I never listen to Kapler’s post-game conferences. Some fans will always want a Dallas Green or Larry Bowa type who acts childish, yells and puts down those millionaires who play the game.