Should Kapler Be Fired?

[zambonir]

I think it could be said of Middleton that perhaps owners also sometimes need to have a learning curve. Philadelphia holds up Lurie as the gold standard now but, truth be told, he was very spotty his first five to six years of owning the Eagles.

Now, it appears that Middleton may be mired in his learning curve. He's created a mess. Will he learn how to clean it up and be a better owner?

I think there is some truth to this, except...

1. Middleton has been in the ownership group since 1994 and became chairman of the advisory board (so, the group that would meet with the president and GM however many times a year) in 1998.

2. It's basically understood that Middleton forced out Giles in 1997 (which is also probably why he took over the advisory board). During the World Series years his influence (and wealth, and actual share of the team) began to rise. He's not new at this.

He's had 25 years to learn how to be an owner, even if he wasn't the owner. What he doesn't know how to do is Dave Montgomery's job - which is why he hired someone else to do it! Sort of.

So basically what I'm seeing is not an owner learning on the job, but the same old same old Phillies (including all the crony advisers and an old-school President, even if he hired a new-school GM) with a bigger checkbook. And, in particular, while I don't think Kapler should be fired, Middleton seems to be showing the same hesitation Monty had (pretty much every time - Thomas, Wade, Amaro). And it shouldn't be his call in the first place.

[bkeich]

Middleton seems to be showing the same hesitation Monty had (pretty much every time - Thomas, Wade, Amaro). And it shouldn't be his call in the first place.

That seems like the biggest problem. Klentak does not work directly for Middleton, but for some mysterious reason Middleton is calling the players and making the decision. He doesnt trust MacPhail to do his job, Middleton is doing it. There is a problem here, I am not sure we are really seeing it, but there is clearly something wrong in this structure.

[bigegypt0417]

Or the GM has given his recommendation and his CEO is asking to get more feedback to make sure it's the right decision. I don't think there is anything wrong with using a skip level philosophy to run an organization.

[Ric20]

Because like Middleton you know nothing about running a baseball team !

[Ric20]

Yes time for Middleton to sell.

[bigegypt0417]

Because like Middleton you know nothing about running a baseball team !

When did Angelo Cataldi join the board?

[zambonir]

That is a more generous interpretation. But the Phillies have a history of botching this stuff. And in general the MacPhail administration has moved too slowly. Including the firing/hiring of the GM process and then Klentak sticking with Mackanin (if they'd just let him go from the start, or at least after Year One, there wouldn't be any debate about firing the manager now. It'd be an easy call one way or the other).

Anyway, the organizational meetings were over before the last three home games. Middleton could have easily taken the weekend plus a couple of days to weigh things. Apparently he flew somewhere yesterday (I read that as, to pick someone's brain, but that could just as easily mean he's picking the brain of someone who wants the job). It's a fine line between deliberate and paralyzed.

Given they are retaining 7 of the 9 coaches (as of now, all under contract again) I'm sure it's not the end of the world if they are 7 days behind everyone else in the managerial search. Clearly if they wanted Maddon things would have played out differently.

Seems to me we're still either looking at an epic change (if not an actual ouster of the front office, the arrival of a manager who threatens their authority) or this is like instant replay in football - the call on the field will likely stand. Option C is we just get another Kapler-style manager (young, inexperienced, analytic, an extension of Klentak) given the coaching staff is coming back.

I'm a little surprised Thomson is staying, if the veteran bench coach is supposed to back up and make the manager better, can't really see how he has. Plus if they do bring Kapler back you give the bench coach job to his possible interim replacement (though that worked pretty badly with Manuel and Sandberg).

[bigegypt0417]

That is a more generous interpretation. But the Phillies have a history of botching this stuff. And in general the MacPhail administration has moved too slowly. Including the firing/hiring of the GM process and then Klentak sticking with Mackanin (if they'd just let him go from the start, or at least after Year One, there wouldn't be any debate about firing the manager now. It'd be an easy call one way or the other).

Using history that goes back decades with a new group here for a short time seems to suggest you walk in the door and catch some type of virus. It is reasonable to believe Middleton, like he did with Bryce Harper is a deliberate and thoughtful CEO/Owner. I'm not sating it's a positive or a negative but there are those who believe in as plan before they take an action...it isn't hurting anything. The season didn't end two months ago...it's been about 10 days.

[andyb]

I think the delay means everybody important will be retained and that is not necessarily a bad thing. With the pitching and hitting coaches the Phillies may have realized that analytics are not everything if the players don't take to the human side of coaching. And with Kapler the realization is probably he did not do an awful job with the hand he was dealt. The injuries and lack of deadline acquisitions were not necessarily his fault.

Maybe Middleton is taking so time to weigh all this, but basically the reason the team fell short in 2019 (injuries, more players not improving than they should have) and its future prospects (an older more expensive roster with fewer prospects) have nothing to do with Kapler. So firing Kapler would be bad management. Better to give the whole experiment a little more time before pulling the plug and starting over.

I am not sure I agree with all that, but it is a reasonable position to take. Firing Kapler would not solve what went wrong in 2019 and basically that is why you fire a manager while retaining most everyone else. I don't think Kapler was great at his job, but probably not the reason to be fired at this point.

[zambonir]

Well not really, because Middleton isn't new. And neither are any of his or the GM-level "advisors." MacPhail is, but he seems to be outside the process.

That's how it reads to me - that Middleton, with Gillick's help, hired two outsiders to replace Monty and Amaro, but now at the first sign of trouble the decision-making process is defaulting back to same old Phillies. I could be wrong. And I will grant you, my default is that any hands-on meddling owner is inherently bad. But also common, and not without rings on their fingers.

The picture is considerably different if Kapler stays than if he doesn't. If he's staying, then it's been business as usual this whole time and the "delay" doesn't matter. If he gets the ax and no other major changes are made it's hard to understand why it took that long, and it would pretty plainly be a case of the owner overruling his baseball people, which is additional ramifications. And then they have to make a hire.

The wild card scenario would be that MIddleton actually does already have a new manager (or more) in place, if and when he makes this call.

[baseballoldie]

But you do?

[phillychuck]

It seems to me that we are taking as gospel truth everything we read in the paper ... it's hard to have a discussion when you don't REALLY know what is going on, everything is second-, third-, and fourth-hand. I sort of want to wait things out to form opinions of Middleton and the process this off-season. It could be really different from what we are reading.

[julio]

It seems to me that we are taking as gospel truth everything we read in the paper ... it's hard to have a discussion when you don't REALLY know what is going on, everything is second-, third-, and fourth-hand. I sort of want to wait things out to form opinions of Middleton and the process this off-season. It could be really different from what we are reading.

This. I frankly don't understand why so many people feel compelled to not only form opinions based on limited, sketchy information, but to convince themselves that such weakly-grounded views must be true. I understand that uncertainty is... uncomfortable, I guess... but the alternative appears to be self-delusion. It's as if scores of phans suddenly decided that they personally had great and unmatched wisdom about these (all?) things.

[allentown]

One does not need to have great and unmatched wisdom to have and state an opinion. Opinions change as new information becomes available. To me, this complaint is akin to saying "never criticize a draft or international signing period until 4 years later, never criticize a rebuild or new administration until 5 years later because you can't be sure how things will turn out. I take the view that we can (and should?) have an interim opinion based upon how the process appears to be implemented and what the process appears to be. I also don't know how we would have any discussions at all on this board at this time of year without speculative opinions -- both ours and the media's. To me, withholding opinion is tantamount to blind faith in a Phillies leadership team which hasn't come close to earning such a degree of acceptance.

[zambonir]

Hey, it's what a message board is for. This is a form of entertainment, no different than calling into a radio show. We ourselves are not journalists covering the Phillies who have to adhere to a certain standard. But when the likes of Zolecki, Salisbury, Gelb and Stark have all said this is entirely Middleton's show (and are of the informed but more speculative opinion that Klentak wants to keep his manager, and Klentak's job is not in danger) that's hardly nothing to base our discussion on. And the news about all 7 coaches having their contract options exercised (and the firing of Scott Sheridan), while not 100% confirmed by multiple on the record sources, is certainly something to talk about too.

We will never know as much as we want to know about what's gone on in the last two weeks but the core question I'd want to see the writers explore, once we do get news, is, "what did they want to know in the last two weeks that they didn't know on the last weekend of the season." Or even on September 1.

Obviously sports is complicated and unpredictable. In some ways, you could just make it corporate and analytical. Set performance goals and you get fired if you don't meet them. I guess in this case it would be like if Kapler was a sales manager who fell short of his targets but they'd also cut his budget, and several of his best reps left for another job mid-year.

[Philsmania]

Not to mention, we have intelligent and informed (usually ) posters on this forum. Wouldn't it stand to reason that our guesses and speculations would be more reliable than those of ignorant blowhards? Makes me think of the below dialogue in Star Trek IV.

https://www.moviequotedb.com/movies/star-trek-iv-the-voyage-home/quote_22179.html

[zambonir]

Yes we are no different than radio callers except I actually want to hear what most people hear have to say.

[phillychuck]

I'm not suggesting we don't discuss things, I'm suggesting we offer discussions with some caveats like "IF it's true that Middleton is polling the players on Kapler" rather than just proceeding as if what is written is the entire, unvarnished truth. This is not particularly directed at anyone, I'm just pretty used to things that are reported in the press turning out to be somewhat different than how they are first covered and want to hold my fire until I'm sure.

BTW, allentown, you know I'm not an uncritical Phils' front office supporter if that comment was aimed at me.

[julio]

BTW, allentown, you know I'm not an uncritical Phils' front office supporter if that comment was aimed at me.

Nah, it was aimed at me... and probably just as off-the-mark. I just don't have your (or most peoples?) patience for rubbish. I find the comparisons of philliesphans to talk radio to be... well, if that's really all we aspire to here, I have to wonder. That's a heck of a low bar.

[zambonir]

Tongue was somewhat in cheek with the radio thing, but at the end of the day let's not act like we're Roger Angell arguing with Ring Lardner either. We're friends and strangers sitting in a (virtual) bar talking about sports and a certain amount of nonsense and hyperbole is expected (even if it's not to your taste).

Plus, being that we're all so smart, I think it's pretty easy to think critically about what seems factual, speculative (but plausible) or nonsensical. Plus, tbh, we're not always that smart - collectively, if not uniformly, we get caught up in rumors and things someone posting here out-and-out makes up (that is just an opinion) all the time!

But then sometimes the truth turns out to be even more ridiculous than what is being reported, not less so.

Lacking anything to write today, Salisbury once again suggests that MLB would frown on the Phillies making any announcements during the post-season, but he already said that exact same thing before the NLDS started too!

Phillies have to make the call on Kapler's future very soon

(I feel like he's probably right though. it would make sense to announce tomorrow, well before the AL game. It also has the effect of burying the news somewhat - like sending out a press release over the weekend - as many national, NL-focused writers and TV people would either be in LA, on their way to LA or franctically catching a plane to Atlanta or St. Louis. Of course if they are keeping Kapler there's nothing to really cover nationally.)