Should Kapler Be Fired?

[el-pietro]

I'm not happy with how much Middleton is meddling. He needs to hire a GM and or President and let them do what they think is right.
It seems clear that the FO wanted Machado over Harper and Middleton pushed them towards Harper. In the short term that seems to have been the right decision but in the long term tat may not be the case.
Kaplers job status should be entirely up to Klentak to decide. Perhaps an extension should require confirmation from above but hiring and firing should be Klentaks responsibility. If Middleton doesn't trust McPhail and Klentaks judgement then he should replace them.

If he does replace them he should look for replacements at one of the smart organisations; Tampa Bay, Oakland, Houston, New York Yankees, Los Angeles Dodgers, or among the scouting systems of Atlanta, Toronto and San Diego.

[Philsmania]

As the below article hints, I think Middleton has genuinely soured on the McPhail-Klentak-Kapler troika but he knows that by firing them, he is going to create a credibility question for himself--both with phans and potential hires--that he'll have to live down for a few years. The perception will be that he is bullcrapper who can't be trusted or just a buffoon. In my opinion though, admitting a mistake and owning it is the highest quality of leadership. And, Jeffrey Lurie was a glorified fantasy league owner his first five years in control. Yet, he learned to become a great owner.

https://www.crossingbroad.com/2019/10/reminder-john-middleton-called-matt-klentak-an-elite-gm-seven-months-ago.html

[julio]

As the below article hints, I think Middleton has genuinely soured on the McPhail-Klentak-Kapler troika but he knows that by firing them, he is going to create a credibility question for himself--both with phans and potential hires--that he'll have to live down for a few years. The perception will be that he is bullcrapper who can't be trusted or just a buffoon. In my opinion though, admitting a mistake and owning it is the highest quality of leadership. And, Jeffrey Lurie was a glorified fantasy league owner his first five years in control. Yet, he learned to become a great owner.

https://www.crossingbroad.com/2019/10/reminder-john-middleton-called-matt-klentak-an-elite-gm-seven-months-ago.html

Is there any reason to believe that the people who write for the Crossing Broad blog have any actual contacts or real information - as opposed to just being guys who write for a fan blog that carries advertising, and who thus have a strong incentive to write things that will generate page views?

[Squire]

Matt Breen says that Klentak's job is not (and was never) in jeopardy

[Philsmania]

They don't have to be whippersnappers either. Just don't go for the hot media name all the time. I would have been fine with giving Dusty the manager's job for instance. Experience is good. It just does not have to be all in the majors or with the hot media candidate.

This is true, but we have been even faddier than going with the hot media candidate. We've chosen guys from 'leading' organizations for jobs in which they have no experience at those leading organizations. We didn't need a pitching coach with decades of experience, but … some experience would have helped and a demonstrated ability to work with pitchers and teach skills and establish rapport and earn buy-in would have helped. Same for a manager who has actually managed -- doesn't need to be a greybeard, but some successful experience is a plus. Same for GM. Some successful experience in the baseball-side leadership was close to essential for an organization which was floundering as the Phillies were floundering. We hire the Braves international amateur whiz, but not to do international, to run the draft, which wasn't his expertise. We jumped on the analytics fad (well probably going to be an on-going staple of the decision-making of successful organizations), but our first big hire was a guy who wasn't noted for analyzing what to look for in scouting, or best modern approach to hitting, pitching, and in-game management -- no, we took a guy from the league front office whose specialty was analyzing contracts and arb offers/awards. You need some experience in the organization of people doing important jobs they are already familiar with. We are faddy in the worst possible way: a follower organization, without the key guys with enough baseball-side experience to actually be successful followers, but who seem arrogant enough to believe they are in the forefront of baseball thinking.

Right. Being intelligent and having ideas doesn't make one qualified. It's kind of like electing someone to an executive branch position (President, Governor, Mayor) who has no experience in government (though in all fairness to Tom Wolf, he has been fine).

[flyers19rw]

I believe this. Kapler has seen his hitting and pitching coaches fired. He probably is next.
Klentak gave Kapler decent players to use but they were not well utilized. Adding Cutch, JT and Harper were great gets and Klentak deserves credit for that. Then after the injury to McCutcheon, Klentak added the best replacements that could be found with Bruce and Dickerson.
As for the pitching side of the equation, losing Kranitz contributed heavily to that. Kranitz is a decent PC whose days with MacPhail and Klentak go back to their time together in Baltimore. Keeping Young and letting Kranitz go was Kapler’s call. (Check Megan Montemurro’s recent article on that subject.) The two did not see eye to eye and Kapler wanted Young. Many of the pitchers appreciated Kranitz’s work with them and did not want to see him released. Then on came Young and the troubles began. Even the data that Young used was off base and had to be adjusted fairly quickly into the season. These failures in the pitching staff do not fall on Klentak. The GM gets the pieces for the chess board, the manager makes the moves.

[BaseballCat]

Losing Cutch certainly affected the hitting side. By removing Kranitz in favor of Young mortally wounded the pitching side. He was respected by pitchers and was making headway with them. Seemed like a nice guy as well. He came over to sign a baseball card for us when we drove up to see Phils at Baltimore for a make-up game (great seats via stubhub) and he stayed and talked for a few minutes to talk. Young never seemed to gel and I blame it on the way the whole transition happened. However better front office moves and help from the minors should have overcome injuries like it did for other playoff or near playoff clubs. We have to do better!

[andyb]

The other side of this is that if management is dictating the coaching staff for the manager, should the manager really be the scapegoat when things don't work out? This would argue for keeping Kapler, but if things don't improve in 2020 then both he and Klentak should be gone.

Plus there is the side matter mentioned in the Athletic today of what veteran manager like Joe Maddon would come to Philly if they could not pick most of all of their coaching staff.

[flyers19rw]

How the Phillies’ big bet on changing their pitching...

Its behind a paywall but there is a free trial period for those that don't have subscriptions. I highly recommend reading this article by Movntemurro and Gelb on the PC situation. It clarifies want went down with Kapler, Kranitz and Young. Montemurro and Gelb put the read together. Its a great piece of work. Kudos to the two of them.

[zambonir]

These failures in the pitching staff do not fall on Klentak. The GM gets the pieces for the chess board, the manager makes the moves.

But that's not how this front office or the modern front office really works. Whatever might be true of Kranitz's performance, he was a guy no one wanted to hire, a holdover from Mackanin's staff who got promoted when no one else took the job, and wasn't Kapler's choice. In a traditional old-school baseball set-up that would have been a foolish decision. In a set-up where the GM and the manager make all decisions together and think with one brain, not so much. Even if Klentak was hesitant to let Kranitz go, he signed off on it, and Young was part of his front office (and may still be). And they were even more hesitant to let Young leave (or even interview, because of all that surefire proprietary data he clearly has that makes pitchers better!) So in the end Klentak is as much to blame for all of it as Kapler. (My guess is MacPhail is the reason Kranitz originally got the job, and that's not good either. Especially if you think he didn't hire a good GM!)

You can see it now with what has happened today (which I assume is being discussed in the other thread). They have fired Young but are keeping at least four other coaches. Now, hopefully three of those coaches are Figueroa, Dickerson and the catching coach and there will either be some bigger changes (like bench coach) if Gabe comes back or the new manager will get to pick some of his guys. But it shows that even with Kapler gone Klentak is going to hire a manager who executes his vision, not one who is just given a roster and told to manage as he sees fit with the staff of his choice.

[zambonir]

Forgive double post but I think it's worth a separate note.

While Gabe Kapler remains in limbo, Phillies' 2020 coaching...

Those within the organization who have advocated for Kapler believe he’s made adjustments, will continue to make them and can only improve. There is a prevailing thought that if Kapler is fired and lands a managerial job elsewhere, he will build on his experience in Philadelphia. Those Kapler supporters want that success to come with the Phillies and are confident it can after he’s endured tough times, confident he will be better because of the ups and downs over the past two seasons. However, his detractors within the organization question the team’s lack of urgency and whether Kapler’s voice resonates in the clubhouse.

What I want to know is who are these people on either side, and why do they get any say? I mean, I'm not saying collaboration and objective opinions aren't important to have, but we have a general manager and a President of Baseball Operations. If they are not aligned either MacPhail should let Klentak do his job or he should overrule him. And if they are aligned but Middleton isn't he should either let his people do their job or get new people. The idea that Middleton and MacPhail can't make up their mind because the likes of Schmidt, Rollins, Bowa, Mackanin, Manuel and Gillick (I surmise) are not in full agreement is ridiculous to me. Though not surprising.

I guess, more charitably, the conflicting voices could also include the assistant GMs, and Klentak himself is not sure. But seriously, what is being gained or learned from this extra week?

[LoneStarPhan]

Seems to me that many these discussions should have been done in the final weeks of the season and a decision made by early this week.

Each day makes the organization look foolish and since real work for the off season should be being done now, each day would put new people at more of a disadvantage if changes are made.

I lean toward retaining the POBO, GM, manager together or fire all three. Firing only one just seems to make more moves likely next off season

Regardless, make a decision.

[mdougherty12]

Seems to me that many these discussions should have been done in the final weeks of the season and a decision made by early this week.

Each day makes the organization look foolish and since real work for the off season should be being done now, each day would put new people at more of a disadvantage if changes are made.

I lean toward retaining the POBO, GM, manager together or fire all three. Firing only one just seems to make more moves likely next off season

Regardless, make a decision.

McPhail is listed as the Phillies' President, not President of Baseball Operations. That would seem to make his role analogous to Dave Montgomery's, not Theo Epstein's with the Cubs.

[zambonir]

He has frequently been referrred to as the President of Baseball Operations though. I wonder if it was never correct or if he used to have the title. In any case as president he is actually in charge of both baseball (Klentak's superior, just as Theo is Jed Hoyer's superior) and business (Dave Buck's superior). So yes, he replaced Monty, but Monty was the guy with final say on baseball before. The difference is he did that as someone who was also part of the ownership group, and was the only person empowered to do things as the managing partner (even if he would run things by them). So yeah, given MacPhail does not seem to actually get his hands dirty on personnel matters, and probably doesn't know much about marketing either, and Middleton is now the managing parner, still not clear what he does!

I don't imagine Middleton is micromanaging the sales team the same way he is the baseball ops.

[allentown]

I don't imagine Middleton is micromanaging the sales team the same way he is the baseball ops.

I don't see any evidence that Middleton is micro-managing the baseball side of things. He has made very clear, really from day one, that he wants an aggressive baseball organization, which makes full use of his $ resources to produce a winning team sooner rather than later. All of that is within the owner's rightful prerogative and it is on MacPhail and company that they have been so leery of spending FA $ and taken such a slow and ineffective approach to improving the organization, beginning with MacPhail's/Klentak's slow approach to setting up the baseball-side organization we are going to go forward with. I think he is coming to the realization that MacPhail and the guys he brought in were the wrong guys.

As with the 25-man roster, I think it important to always have a mix of young guys and experienced vets. That provides a good balance of enthusiasm/urgency and learned wisdom and stability. The Phillies aren't the first team to emphasize analytics, but it seems they started late and then started with very young and inexperienced guys, whereas other successful teams started with experienced baseball stat people. I recall the first big analytics hire as an intern in the Commissioner's office who was working on analyzing contracts/arb awards. What could possibly go wrong? Across the board, MacPhail went young and inexperienced, which not incidentally also correlates to cheap. All of the experience is within the myriad cloud of senior advisors.

When Houston set out on their journey toward baseball success, they poached Luhnow, who poached other experienced hands. We didn't do that.

[andyb]

I guess the question for me is whether Middleton's meddling has pressured Klentak into doing things he did not want to do. I don't think this is the Harper vs Machado question. Klentak at heart was probably fine with either. It is not like our minor league system is crawling with powerful LH bats anyway, especially as much of our power is right-handed (Hoskins, Franco, Bohm, Ortiz).

The pressure is more relevant in the Realmuto and Segura trades. Those were "win now" trades. I don't think they were the right "win now" trades because they made the team older at a point where it was not quite good enough to win. And making the team older coincided with the minor league system being depleted while also making the roster more expensive (leaving less room to use cash to improve the team).

Did Middleton pressure Klentak into these moves which in the long run hurt our competitiveness? Or is Middleton frustrated by those moves not working out as hoped (where Klentak was the force behind those moves). Not sure we know the answer to that question yet.

[bkeich]

Now I really hope we keep Kapler, which I assume was the decision. We look more foolish every day if we make a move now that the organization is indecisive. If it goes much longer and we don’t keep Kapler we are going to be left that the only guy available will be Kapler.

I certainly hope I am wrong, but my assumption is Kapler doesn’t survive any slow start or non-playoff 2020. This feels like Ray Rhodes last year inPhilly, everyone knew he was doomed, but we had to sit through it anyway.

Klentak can still save him, but it will take a huge overhaul in the pitching staff to compete. 2 Starters and 4-5 relievers is not that easy to acquire, but that is pretty much the minimum we need. (A couple of those relievers could be guys that get stashed on the IL or AAA)

[zambonir]

I don't see any evidence that Middleton is micro-managing the baseball side of things. He has made very clear, really from day one, that he wants an aggressive baseball organization, which makes full use of his $ resources to produce a winning team sooner rather than later. All of that is within the owner's rightful prerogative and it is on MacPhail and company that they have been so leery of spending FA $ and taken such a slow and ineffective approach to improving the organization, beginning with MacPhail's/Klentak's slow approach to setting up the baseball-side organization we are going to go forward with. I think he is coming to the realization that MacPhail and the guys he brought in were the wrong guys.

That might be true, but he certainly didn't make that clear from Day 1. He hired Gillick, who predicted a slow timeline. He hired MacPhail and Klentak, who did not promise we'd win before this season and were very clear that they intended to zero out the payroll (and tank) for a bit. They certainly must have told him it would take several years to turn over baseball ops at every level and establish analytics. If he wanted quick then yes, he shouldn't have hired MacPhail (who knows nothing about running a team in this decade) or Klentak. The year they actually made all the changes Milwaukee hired Stearns away from Houston before Gillick had even actually fired Amaro (and MacPhail was not yet officially on the job). We see the difference now certainly.

Can't really describe anything Klentak did last year as "leery" of spending, it's just not clear if he felt pushed to do it.

Klentak is actually not less experienced than Luhnow was, Arguably more, on paper. Luhnow had no baseball experience when the Cardinals hired him, just like our analytics guys. He was with the Cards for 8 years before being a GM. Klentak had 12 years with three teams when we hired him. Just not good teams!

And how do you not read the Harper signing and the managerial decision as micro-managing? I realize the former is normal with that kind of money on the table. I'm not sure it's ever good though (it's the Nationals Way, and what have they won while the GM lacked full authority and they changed managers every two years).

But more importantly the Kapler move should be done already, if it was actually up to the baseball ops people. I guess if he's not leaving then you can't say Middleton meddled, at least.

[allentown]

Gillick predicted us in playoffs this past season, didn't he?

[zambonir]

Gillick said they would "compete" for the playoffs. He also originally said 2018 of course. Turns out they actually did it both seasons, just not successfully and for long enough.

And they sure spent a lot of money trying to make it happen this year which I doubt was the plan in 2016 (other than to sign Machado or Harper as the icing on the cake). And Middleton still had to sign off on the decision not to go for it at either deadline. If he didn't, and disagrees with those calls, get a new GM.

I think Klentak did build a playoff team this past season, if healthy. It wasn't supposed to be a World Series or even an NLCS team. And obviously he was not able to build a homegrown core. It's still too soon to blame him for the latter but patterning themselves after the Royals, Astros or Cubs without realizing they didn't actually have enough players - or even the multiple years of super-high draft positions to get more of them - was a big error. Not sure responding to that error by gettting older and trying to win sooner was the right move, though that is obviously hindsight.

IIRC you were critical of the underspending in 2017 - wanted to sign someone like Chapman or other free agents. But that would have cost us Bohm and Middleton obviously was not pushing for spending $ until last year. And even then Santana, Arrieta and the relievers were just sold as enough ballast to go .500, and Arrieta only happened when he turned out to be cheap.