Play Ball (sort of)

[zambonir]

it's always hard to compare eras. My feeling is the the '08 lineup was more top-to-bottom talented.

Funny to look at Tug's actual 1980 postseason stats, they are not great. But he got the outs/didn't let 'em score when he had to.

[andyb]

It is a little hard to compare because of the different eras and different styles of play. While there might be more pure offense in 2008 by OPS+ or measures like that, there were probably huge defensive advantages to the 1980 lineup. Boone, Trillo, Bowa, Schmidt, and Maddox were all plus defensively. Luzinski probably the only weak spot defensively.

Both rotations were a little sketchy compared to most World Series winners. Very average beyond Carlton and Hamels.

[zambonir]

But was the '08 team bad defensively, especially considering the offense? Chooch, Feliz, Rollins, Utley, Vic, Werth? (I kinda figure Howard and Burrell were also better than Rose and the Bull).

[philsphan67]

Not that war is the end all figure, but the WAR's of the two teams and their top players were remarkably close.
- I forgot how good Utley was in his prime (9.0 WAR)
- Ruthven had a very good season in '80 (3.1 WAR)
- Chooch and Boone were both under 0.5 WAR, but I think most Phillies Phans think of them as very reliable.
- I think time helps Boone even more, he goes on to play on some very good Cal Angels teams and posts a 2.4 WAR at age 40

The teams are really close, I always thought the 1976-83 run was just as good as the 2006-11 run. The '76 - '83 run had no WC and similar post season success. Enjoy those great times for both runs and let's hope to see another one in our lifetime:grinning:

[Philsmania]

So, how do they match up, using numbers from the relevant seasons? All in my opinion!

1B: Rose < Howard--two entirely different animals, Rose a batter, Howard a slugger
2B: Trillo < Utley, though Trillo was awesome in the Postseason in '80
SS: Bowa < Rollins
3B: Schmidt > Feliz, by a lot
C: Boone = Ruiz
LF: Luzinski < Burrell, though Bull had the more accomplished career
CF: Maddox < Victorino, this one was close
RF: McBride = Werth, though Werth has higher WAR and OPS

Bench: 1980 (Gross, Unser, Smith, Moreland, Aviles, the two unrelated Vukoviches) > 2008 (Jenkins, Bruntlett, Coste, Dobbs, Taguchi, Stairs)

Rotation: 1980 rotation (Carlton, Ruthven, Walk, Lerch, combination of Christianson, Espinosa and Bystrom) > 2008 rotation (Hamels, Myers, Moyer, Blanton, combination of Happ, Kendrick and Eaton)--I give the edge to 1980 on the strength of Lefty alone but that rotation was weaker on the back end.

Bullpens: 1980 bullpen (McGraw, Reed, Noles, Saucier, Brusstar and some Larson, Lagrow and Lyle) = 2008 bullpen (Lidge, Madson, Romero, Durbin, Condrey, Eyre, Seanez and some Gordon)--both units most impressive, both at closer and in terms of depth.

So what do you all think?

[zambonir]

It is fascinatingly close.

I think we probably overrate the 1980 bench and bulllpen because those players seem less fungible (and were). These days, and in '08 too, non-starters don't tend to stick around for more than a couple of seasons. And free agency came later and careers were longer.

[andyb]

The 08 team was not bad defensively. It is more 1980 was really good. Gold glovers as opposed to above average fielders. Utley and Vic were probably our best two defensive players and they were not universally the best at their positions each year. Rollins was good, though a little overrated in the field. Feliz was 33 at the time so not much better than average and Chooch was merely average in the field. We don't have the same advanced defensive stats from 1980 so it is probably useless to look at dWAR and other numbers like that.

I guess I might have underrated the 1980 pitching staff at first glance. Carlton was worth 2 Hamels. 10.2 WAR. You just don't have great pitchers that give you 304 innings any more. Tug was worth 2 Lidges also (4.6 WAR). A 92 IP closer? Again that is almost 2 pitchers these days.

[Philsmania]

Phillies climb to .500 with a 4-2 win over Texas and push their win streak to four games. Nola was excellent again and improves to 4-1 on the season with a 1.98 ERA. Neris with his seventh save. Phillies have the chance to close out an undefeated mini-homestand (five games) and push their record over .500 with the season's first BPS tomorrow afternoon.

Unfortunately, the Nats have the best record in baseball right now and the Phillies remain four games back in third.

https://2020seasonsim.s3.amazonaws.com/April21st/4-21+TEX%40PHI.HTML