Phillies have Acquired SP Kyle Gibson, RP Ian Kennedy SP Hans Crouse from the Rangers for Spencer Howard, Kevin Gowdy and Josh Gessner

[zambonir]

Howard's situation was extremely different though. He never really got the kind of chance those other guys did, more due to the pandemic than his innings limit, and then the Phillies' changing their mind about his role three times this year. Nothing to be done about it though. It's a perfectly straightforward future-for-present move, when you couldn't even be sure Howard wouldn't start next year in AAA (he won't in Texas probably, but they're rebuilding).

[flyers19rw]

He had a shot last year with similar results to this season, a rapid decline in velocity. This year he was given several opportunities with the same result. Why hold on to him and keep trying? Every time he was put on the mound, his value dropped. Now was a good time to move him before more decline was exposed.

[allentown]

These weren't momentous deals, but Dombrowski won them. I don't trust pitchers, post-shoulder injury and Howard's stats say he has never fully recovered from that injury. I loved it when we signed Guttierez, but he has progressed at a snails pace and has looked good, but not very good or great. This was not the year to make a big deal or to go over the lux tax. We just aren't situated well enough for that. Need to hang onto what top-level young talent we have.

[zambonir]

I like the trade, but being thrown into the major league rotation after an extended off-season and no actual AAA action doesn't constitute a real shot, and neither did how was he handled this year. And then he got injured, it's not like he lost his rotation spot (nor did the team have any interest in upgrading it alas). They are indeed smart to move him while other teams see it the same way.

Let's just hope even one of Abel and Painter throw more meaningful innings than Sixto and Howard (and Gowdy) did, because of course... TINSAAPP.

[flyers19rw]

There’s the thing. “And then he got injured.” The shoulder went bad and so did his velocity. Shoulder injuries are killers.

[zambonir]

No argument there. But everyone gets injured. For all we know, Zach Eflin may never be good again. Wheeler had TJ. Everyone thought Nola was going to need it too. Shoulders can be worse but he hasn't had surgery has he? Maybe it goes that way, maybe it doesn't.

They did well here, but also no way the give up on Howard this fast if they had anything else people wanted. You originally compared him to VV and Pivetta but those guys were here for years, and pitched hundreds of innings. Unfortunately if we assume he was going to end up the same way, that's probably on the Phillies as much as the player, so we could just be having the same conversation about Crouse in two years.

[Austinfan]

Howard has lots of upside, so does Crouse for that matter.
Gowdy a bit less, but he's regained velocity, so he may development movement on his FB.
Ogle also has upside.

Gutierrez probably had an AAA ball ceiling, maybe a marginal backup C at the ML level, but behind Marchan who is only a year older and with Perez a big money signing and Edwards playing well, nipping at his heels.

Burch has a shot at becoming a middle RP, but the Phillies probably have 10 arms with just as good or better shot at that role.

So the Phillies gave real value, they just managed to get almost as much pitching value back as well as two veterans and money retained.

[EDmuch]

Looking forward to next year, which I think is a big part of this trade, our rotation could be Nola, Wheeler, Eflin, GIbson & Suarez with Kennedy closing in the bull pen. That could go along way toward solving the pitching demons that have haunted this franchise. How do we get out if Didi’s contract so we can add Buxton. All of that would really upgrade this team.

[bkox]

with Kennedy closing in the bull pen

He s a free agent at the end of the year

[zambonir]

I kind of have the opposite feeling. First of all, we'll see if Suarez can actually seize the role. Second of all, I'm reluctant to assume that Kyle Gibson is the second coming of Charlie Morton at 34 - he's probably the pitcher his career numbers say he is (4.42 ERA and FIP). A #4 on most team and a #5 on a great one. Neither of those guys move this 80-win team to 90+.

What it probably does is let you trade Eflin (perhaps for Buxton? Though he's still a huge risk) and then sign another FA starter.

Kennedy was on a minor league deal this year and makes just $2.15 million so he's probably a pretty easy re-sign at his age, but they also have to replace Neris and Bradley. Not hard to do, but I reckon they still need a big FA reliever.

Will they keep Falter in the pen this year or will he end up competing with Suarez for the rotation spot in spring training (as Suarez was originally supposed to in 2020).

[Austinfan]

It's funny, FG rates the Phillies as a trade deadline loser, but then look at the trade prospect rankings:

Howard 50
Crouse 45
Gowdy 40
Burch 35+
Gessner 35+
Gutierrez 35+
Ogle 35

Ranking the Prospects Traded During the 2021 Deadline

for Gibson (controlled through next season), Kennedy, Galvis.
To me that's awfully cheap for a substantial stretch run upgrade.

[andyb]

It is not about rating the one major trade as a winner and loser. The rankings are about whether the Phillies did much to improve themselves. Buyers are just mostly on what they bought and we simply did not buy much to improve a .500 club with some big flaws.