Phillies 2021 Spring Training Discussion

[andyb]

I actually think he would be claimed now. It is not THAT large a contract and many people still see the potential. The options on the back end of the contract are pretty valuable if he did become an average regular.

FWIW Torreyes is probably a guy that can be sent up and down without anyone claiming him though I assume he has the service time to claim free agency if the assignment feels permanent (i.e. both Kingery and Maton have passed him). The flaw with Torreyes on the roster is he adds little as a pinch hitter. From the right side our best options most days would be Quinn and Knapp and that ain't good.

[Taudawg]

I actually think he would be claimed now. It is not THAT large a contract and many people still see the potential. The options on the back end of the contract are pretty valuable if he did become an average regular.

I'm not certain he would be claimed. It would be a risk. The Phillies or the claiming team are on the hook for $20 million. Kingery turns 27 in one month. He'll be in his 30's when those option years begin and his speed is likely to diminish. Maybe they don't designate now, but if Kingery starts AAA struggling, it becomes easy. When I see 2B players like Cesar Hernandez, Marwin Gonzalez, and Johnathan Schoop all take less than 5 mil a season, Kingery really needs to become much better than average to match his paycheck.

On another note - I am glad the Phillies did not trade Segura (for pennies on the dollar) to open up 2B for Kingery. Yes, Segura is overpaid and on the decline, but if he provides solid D and .750 OPS over the next two seasons, 2B is not an area of need.

[fish]

Girardi's love affair with Torreyes is a head scratcher.

And as for the critique that Romero needs to be more consistent in the zone....how is the same not true for Velazquez? I don't love Kintzler, but i guess if Romero has to go down to make room for him and Coonrod then i'll get over it. He'll be back soon enough. There was speculation that at 4 million they'd still be able to move Velazquez if they decided not to keep him on the roster but, short of scuttling him to the Orioles, he seems like a tough sell.

[andyb]

On another note - I am glad the Phillies did not trade Segura (for pennies on the dollar) to open up 2B for Kingery. Yes, Segura is overpaid and on the decline, but if he provides solid D and .750 OPS over the next two seasons, 2B is not an area of need.

Agree with that. He was always a fairly certain slightly above average player. My only complaints were preferring Crawford and taking on the salary. Now that we have the salary, it clearly makes us an inferior team to move on from him even if he sinks to average or slightly below. Kingery playing well could change that, but until he does, Segura is valuable.

[Philsmania]

Let us hope that Kingery is repairable and not irreparably damaged by Klentak's and Kapler's crack coaching and instructional staffs which seemingly thought outside the box just for the sake of thinking outside the box. At the ML level, Mallee and Young pretty much were disasters. Hoskins showed signs of turning the corner last year with Mallee fully out of his head. Young, meanwhile, nearly sent Eflin off the rails. Moniak just might be turning the corner with better coaching and instruction.

[David_Criss]

I, too am hoping the best for Kingery. This kid was a possible 20/20 player then he was made to learn new positions as a rookie at the highest level. Say what you want that has to screw with your thinking and part of hitting is being relaxed and focused in the box. If you've just spent the last few minutes learning a new position in your head at the Major League level, it is hard to switch gears immediately when you grab a bat.

As far as the bench being left handed heavy.......Vinny bats right handed.

[Philsmania]

Girardi's love affair with Torreyes is a head scratcher.

Charlie had his John MacDonald (and Michael Martinez), Kapler had his Sean Rodriguez. Managers tend to have "their guys". Girardi has Torreyes (and Didi as a regular).

[Taudawg]

As far as the bench being left handed heavy.......Vinny bats right handed.

True story. Career .224 hitter. and .323 vs. Lefties!!!

[Philsmania]

I, too am hoping the best for Kingery. This kid was a possible 20/20 player then he was made to learn new positions as a rookie at the highest level. Say what you want that has to screw with your thinking and part of hitting is being relaxed and focused in the box. If you've just spent the last few minutes learning a new position in your head at the Major League level, it is hard to switch gears immediately when you grab a bat.

As far as the bench being left handed heavy.......Vinny bats right handed.

Once he reached The Show, the Phillies pretty much messed around with Kingery both at the plate and in the field. I don't usually buy the maxim, "If it's not broke, don't fix it" but that seems to be what happened with Kingery as the Phillies really tried to break him down and build him into something else.

[andyb]

With Kingery and offense I think the explanation is much simpler. There is a reason some players go through each level of the minors and often take a year or two at the higher levels. Kingery mastered AA but not AAA. He also learned the wrong lessons at AA with the easy home run park. When he got to AAA he never mastered the strike zone (look at his K/BB ratio) and also continued with his power heavy approach. Power is important to Kingery but more as a 15-20 HR guy with lots of doubles. Not a 30 HR guy that sells out too much and fails to use his speed adequately.

Kingery's approach was wrong and he never mastered the strike zone. Then he had a hot Spring (where stats are meaningless) and a big contract and got thrust into a major league role he was not ready for. While he improved his second year, there were still holes in his game that he never learned in AAA.

I don't really buy the hitting coaches messed him up theory. He was never developed properly in the first place. It is easy to blame everything on the Klentak/Kapler regime who made a bunch of mistakes. But they were not always wrong and the coaches were not always useless. Hey, we even promoted Sam Fuld after he produced the worst outfield defense in recent major league history, so it is sometimes not the coaches but the circumstances (i.e. what do you do with Rhys Hoskins who is not a LF).

I have no idea what to think of the effect COVID had on Kingery. Again it is an easy excuse. I just want the kid to relax, have a couple hundred low pressure at bats, and come up and help the ballclub as a good defensive player (whereever he is) that chips in with a 750 OPS and 20 SB. That player is probably worth $10 million a year and hopefully still is buried inside.

[allentown]

The Phillies under Klentak were fad chasers, without any real understanding of what would/could work with the players they had. They were an analytics-heavy team which evidence no understanding of analytics. Yes, their approach certainly harmed Kingery, just as it harmed Moniak and Haseley. Draft a guy for a great contact swing and then decide to change him into a guy who hits for power. Consistency in an organization is a prerequisite for success. Know what sort of player you want on the team, draft the best guys available who fit that model, develop them to be the best player they can with the skills they have. If there are guys in the organization who aren't the sort of player you want, trade them if you can get decent value, or just leave them to be the style player that they are. The Phillies were absolutely in love with (it wasn't only Gillick) Moniak on draft day, gushed over his great contact swing. Loved Kingery enough to give him a biggish contract before he reached the majors for good. Then they decide they should be different players? The buzz was how great the Dodgers did with players who could play everywhere, so Kingery had to play many positions. Players are individuals. The latest great fad won't work for everyone.

[Philsmania]

With Kingery and offense I think the explanation is much simpler. There is a reason some players go through each level of the minors and often take a year or two at the higher levels. Kingery mastered AA but not AAA. He also learned the wrong lessons at AA with the easy home run park. When he got to AAA he never mastered the strike zone (look at his K/BB ratio) and also continued with his power heavy approach. Power is important to Kingery but more as a 15-20 HR guy with lots of doubles. Not a 30 HR guy that sells out too much and fails to use his speed adequately.

Kingery's approach was wrong and he never mastered the strike zone. Then he had a hot Spring (where stats are meaningless) and a big contract and got thrust into a major league role he was not ready for. While he improved his second year, there were still holes in his game that he never learned in AAA.

I don't really buy the hitting coaches messed him up theory. He was never developed properly in the first place. It is easy to blame everything on the Klentak/Kapler regime who made a bunch of mistakes. But they were not always wrong and the coaches were not always useless. Hey, we even promoted Sam Fuld after he produced the worst outfield defense in recent major league history, so it is sometimes not the coaches but the circumstances (i.e. what do you do with Rhys Hoskins who is not a LF).

I have no idea what to think of the effect COVID had on Kingery. Again it is an easy excuse. I just want the kid to relax, have a couple hundred low pressure at bats, and come up and help the ballclub as a good defensive player (whereever he is) that chips in with a 750 OPS and 20 SB. That player is probably worth $10 million a year and hopefully still is buried inside.

I think both happened with Kingery. The Phillies overreacted to his great ST in 2018 (and possibly by his 2017 season in Reading) by promoting him--and buying out his arb years--too soon when, yes, he needed some time in AAA. I suspect both Kapler's and Klentak's fingerprints were on that one. But, once he reached the majors, I also think that the Phillies basically tried breaking down what he was--at worst a poor man's Dustin Pedroia at second base--and building him into something else--a big bat you could play anywhere or a poor man's Cody Bellinger.

And, I get the sense that Fuld is probably more of a titular GM. Dombrowski is clearly running the show while Fuld is probably doing more nuts and bolts stuff.

[andyb]

The Fuld comment was more to say that he might actually be a plus to the organization even if the outfield defense he oversaw was a disaster. We make lazy assumptions all the time. It is really looking now like Chris Young was a bad pitching coach, but I am not quite ready to throw the hitting instruction under the bus yet from that era.

[Philsmania]

The Fuld comment was more to say that he might actually be a plus to the organization even if the outfield defense he oversaw was a disaster. We make lazy assumptions all the time. It is really looking now like Chris Young was a bad pitching coach, but I am not quite ready to throw the hitting instruction under the bus yet from that era.

Like Young, Mallee was also a product of the Astros Coaching University and was fired by the Cubs one year after being the hitting coach for a WS winning team before the Phillies hired him. He came with question marks and I got the sense that he tried to do a lot of re-engineering of Phillies hitters. Hoskins and Herrera also dropped off precipitously under his tutelage. Santana got good again after he got out of here and away from Mallee. In 2020, with mostly the same cast of characters, the Phillies had a good offense after struggling to score in 2019. Anecdotal evidence, I suppose, but....

[andyb]

Anecdotal evidence, I suppose, but....

We did add Didi as an upgrade over Cesar Hernandez from 2019 (small upgrade) and Bohm was a pretty big upgrade over Franco. We got better in 2020, but it is really only a tiny improvement once you adjust for new players. 8th to 4th in terms of runs/game rank in the league (all runs scored was a bit higher in 2020 due to DH so league ranks are instructive, though who knows about the divisional strength factor).

I think we are just as analytically inclined today as in the Kapler years. We just seem to be smarter about it. The best hitting and pitching coaches also don't necessarily have a philosophy they apply to everyone. That seems to be Young's issue of trying to treat too many pitchers the same. With hitting it is as much about buy in and the relationship with the coach. Hopefully the future is better than the past, though of course it would be nice to develop a little raw talent now and then to give them something to work with.

[Philsmania]

Teaching is its own unique skill set. One can be very intelligent and/or have great ideas and insights. But, if you cannot communicate that intelligence, ideas and or insights and properly mentor pupils into effectively absorbing and applying those things, you will fail as a teacher. That's where the lack of "buy in" comes into play. You can blame the students to a point but, at some point, it's on the teacher.

[andyb]

Haseley the only CF candidate in the lineup today. 3 players (Haseley, Herrera, Quinn) for 2 spots. Decision does not need to be made till Thursday.

I wonder if the decision is more about whether Haseley is ready than anything else. Quinn is the right-handed platoon here. Haseley and Herrera the left-handed with not too much difference in potential performance. Health has held Haseley back. Is he ready? Is it worth potentially losing a 40-man pitcher?

[allentown]

I think we are just as analytically inclined today as in the Kapler years. We just seem to be smarter about it. The best hitting and pitching coaches also don't necessarily have a philosophy they apply to everyone.

Yes, we tried to run before we could walk with letting our analytics department have as much influence as they did, prior to any demonstration of competence. I agree they likely have learned from their errors and greater experience, plus some people being replaced and others cut loose in the cost reduction. The coaches were considered not much more than translators of what the analytics group said should be done. And yes, it does seem that the same approach was required of just about every player, regardless of their skill set. We went all in on launch angle for power, just as we went all in on the high FB. Fuld seems to have had more freedom than the hitting and pitching coaches. The analytics department was pretty much forced to fit their model to the Fuld OF positioning decisions, as he told them each game how far their projections were off and they rejiggered their model.
Yes, teaching is a unique skill set. In dealing with professional athletes, buy-in is important. Our pitching coach skipped that step. Turns out, based on after-the-fact reporting, the pitchers trusted the assistant pitching coach, who of course was fired.
Klentak and Kapler were brought in to implement advanced analytics and they did so with a sledge hammer, backed by a very inexperienced analytical staff who seemingly just weren't up to the task. It doesn't say that modern analytics aren't the way to go, it says if you are to gain a competitive advantage from them, then you need an analytical staff that is better than average. We now have outsourced instruction to a large extent, which seems a wise choice, given the prior debacle. Data vs fad following.

[andyb]

Haseley with a nice opposite field single. Then Torreyes with a perfect hit and run single behind Haseley.

Genius.

[HopeSpringsEternal]

Haseley with a nice opposite field single.

And now Haseley hits an RBI single to right. I kind of think he’s our starting CF on Thursday and Herrera starts the season at AAA.