Phillies 2021 Spring Training Discussion

[phillychuck]

Kingery never developed adequate strike zone control/pitch recognition. He got by in the minors because pitchers threw him hittable strikes, and he crushed those pitches. Now he can't even seem to hit those.

He may play multiple positions, but I would never want someone on my roster who can't play "batter".

[zambonir]

Kingery played centerfield in college (not forever obviously), and what good would it even do for the Phillies to try and make him a full-time 2B now? They still have Segura next year and there's also a non-zero chance Didi moves from SS if they Phillies hit that free agent market.

Obviously the Phillies are not the Rays or Dodgers and Kingery is not Chris Taylor or Ben Zobrist, which is too bad for both the team and the player, but if he doesn't win the CF job he's the utility infielder, and still probably better than Maton or Chatham. He's certainly not going to go to the alternate site, maybe if he's still terrible in May they could consider AAA.

I'm sure there's some truth to the notion that the position-switching affects his offense, it is just more stuff to think about - which glove, positioning, tracking the ball off the bat - but it's not the reason for his struggles (and right now, while he obviously still has a long way to go to get back to where he was in the first half of 2019, I think it's just the hangover from COVID and the injuries).

And when is the last time the Phillies successfully demoted an established but struggling young position player to get him back on track? Every guy I can think of - Brown, Asche, Nick Williams, Franco - it meant the end of their career.

And every team has a guy on their roster who can't play "batter." You just don't usually pay Phil Gosselin or Wilson Valdez $4 million.

[andyb]

Herrera and Kingery 0-3 today. Quinn 1-3. Nobody is going out and winning the CF job at the moment.

[xogfog]

At this point, just put Moniak in there...

[LoneStarPhan]

Quinn's hit was a double to right.

I would say Rondon cemented his fate today. His stats have been pretty bad so far and he started the seventh by walking the first two batters. He did get two outs but then gave up a single to allow two runs to score. Warren came and allowed that runner to score as well. Yankees open up 4-1 lead. Rondon now has 5.1 IP this spring, 7 hits, 4 walks, 11.57 ERA. Anderson started today and pitched 3 scoreless innings. Bradley allowed the first Yankee run in his inning (two singles, SB) and Alvarado and Neris had scoreless innings.

Moniak in right field last inning had an error on a throw (right to home) that did not cost the run but did allow a runner to move up a base.

[andyb]

I'd be fine with him as a placeholder until Haseley is back, but he really needs AAA time this year. Ignore the Spring stats and focus on what these players have cumulatively done over the past few years.

I am excited to see some better at bats from Moniak along with the increased power. I also can safely say he has not done enough yet to suggest he is ready to start or even platoon at the major league level. I probably would not even want him as a placeholder if there were April minor league games.

[zambonir]

Rondon always struck me as being closer to Neftali Feliz (has he even reported?) than Kintzler.

Clearly nobody is going to "win" the CF job. Either the competion will continue in-season (with the 40-man decisions dictating who's in the mix) or it's a platoon. Still hard to say if Herrera has a higher bar to clear, both for roster reasons and PR reasons. If not, may as well go with him and if he doesn't produce, option him out when Haseley's ready (and if he does, option Haseley). If they just don't want to bother with him Moniak would make sense for a few weeks.

[andyb]

Stark gushing about Alvardo with scouts thinking he could end up as our closer:
https://twitter.com/jaysonst/status/1371541677496803339

"Fastball 98-100. Unhittable slider 92-93"

[Taudawg]

There's nearly as many spring games remaining as have been played. I expect we will see Kingery, Quinn and Herrera play nearly everyday from now until the end of camp.

[zambonir]

I see The Athletic covered this today as well. Of course if we're psychoanalyzing, the below suggests that Kingery and Quinn have not adjusted well to having an additional competitor for the job, and the attention paid to it that really as nothing to do with them.

If Miller and Haseley are both on the DL to start is almost doesn't matter. Unless you just call Kingery an IF and take Jankowski over Chatham.

So, the Phillies could deploy a platoon with Odúbel Herrera and Scott Kingery in April. If they want to prolong all of the decisions given the incomplete spring results, they could keep Roman Quinn on the roster — especially since Brad Miller’s recent rib cage injury could sideline him to begin the regular season.

There is frustration over the Grapefruit League numbers for Kingery and Quinn. The Phillies are not basing their center-field decision on those numbers, but the larger trends are concerning. Manager Joe Girardi believes both players are “trying to do too much” because of the attention paid to the competition.

“You need to understand who you are, and what your game is, and you have to play to that,” Girardi said. “These guys probably have pressure on them right from the beginning. For a lot of these guys, the pressure starts when the season starts. These guys have pressure because they’re trying to make a team and earn a spot. I understand that. But you have to be able to relax and know who you are to perform.”

Phillies notes: What JoJo Romero is thinking, how CF is trending, why Zack...

[andyb]

A bunch of the non roster players have March 24th opt outs built into their contracts. I think we'll see much of the roster take shape by then as the opt outs might force 40-man moves (like for Quinn or Velasquez). I think this includes Joyce, Kintzler, and Watson. I guess the 40-man move would not have to be done on the 24th, but the commitment to the major league salary would.

[andyb]

There is frustration over the Grapefruit League numbers for Kingery and Quinn.

Quinn has played about as well as Herrera if you just look at the Spring. Higher OBP, just behind on OPS because of the Herrera home runs. One thing about Herrera that worries me is that a player that does not take walks (he has yet to walk this Spring) is exactly the type of player that might have a good Spring especially early on when pitchers are often just trying to get the ball over.

The news stories do have a bit of a pro-Herrera bias in that they are clearly overlooking his 2 years of mediocre defense. I am not bought into the theory that he is "back". Not sure Quinn will ever amount to anything either, but he is controllable for 4 years at likely less than the cost of Herrera this year.

[Taudawg]

Quinn by the stat line is having an okay spring. Yet, there are 8 Ks in 20 ABs, and of his 6 hits, 1 is a bunt single and another a swinging bunt single. I get it, that's part of his game, but .500 BABIP is not sustainable. He has also been a really good spring training player in 5+ years of spring ball, with much less to show in regular season. On defense so far, he has made the plays he should make.

Herrera is having an ok spring as well. What I notice, despite the lack of a BB yet, is fewer Ks than Quinn and Kingery, and his two homers were no doubters - any park, any time of year. Plus lots of 2 strike foul balls and strong exit velocity. He's putting the bat on the ball, but only .250 BABIP, well below his career avg. Also, he has looked good on defense making some good plays. I think the "eye test" in spring training means as much or more than the stat line.

Handicapping the CF race on March 15th - 1 Herrera 2 Quinn 3 Kingery 4 everyone else. Subject to change daily...like the weather

[zambonir]

I don't think the opt-outs will be a huge issue because the pitcher moves are separate. After that it really just comes down to Herrera vs. Quinn, and/or Joyce. Hopefully Joyce would not opt-out in any case, he didn't have any offers when Fuld signed him, no reason to think anyone is clamoring for him now.

Head-to-head on Herrera and Quinn I would have to agree with andy that if all else is roughly equal, and given Herrera isn't going anywhere, I don't give up a four-year controllable player for him, even if his ceiling is 26th man on the roster.

If it comes down to losing someone like Llovera (or Hale) just to make room for another outfielder, that seems like less of a big deal. But at the end of the day I think I still put Herrera #3, simply because he's still not on the roster. Kingery isn't really fighting for a job, just a role. And the same might be true of Quinn, unless they are willing to trade him or lose him for nothing.

It would actually make a small statement if they simply moved him Herrera to the major league clubhouse. He doesn't need the stipends, and the team doesn't spend time there like it normally would, but nevertheless, all the NRIs get to spend more time working with and getting to know their potential major league teammates (as well as the major league coaching staff) while Herrera is still physically in the same place that Muzziotti now is.

[Taudawg]

Phillies' Brad Miller: Could make Opening Day

[zambonir]

That's good news.

Also, that's pretty crazy that Brogdon routinely pops out a rib, as was reported after he left that game.

[julio]

And when is the last time the Phillies successfully demoted an established but struggling young position player to get him back on track? Every guy I can think of - Brown, Asche, Nick Williams, Franco - it meant the end of their career.

Maikel Franco’s career does not appear to be over...109 OPS+ in 60 games with KC last summer.

[phillychuck]

Franco is currently unsigned but rumors are that he is headed to the Orioles shortly.

[zambonir]

Nick Williams' career isn't over either, even if he's not doing quite as well. But with all those guys, their Phillies careers ended after being demoted by the Phillies. And they had no trade value.

Orioles should have tried to poach Cesar from the Indians and Ruf from the Giants, could have had an all ex-Phillies infield.

[julio]

But with all those guys, their Phillies careers ended after being demoted by the Phillies.

Well, yes.... but that is not what you wrote, is it?