Odubel Herrera Arrested in AC; Charged with Domestic Violence

zambonir 2019-08-18 00:04:14 UTC #142

If Herrera were to somehow rejoin the Phillies, play well, and win a World Series, more power to him. He could come to the celebration in 10 years. But it's probably not going to happen and it wouldn't be a good look right now if it did.

Bill Giles did not handle the Myers incident well:

Brett Myers also assaulted a Philadelphia Inquirer reporter in 2007 and lied to the team about an apparent drunken incident in 2009. He also barely contributed to the '09 team (but was obviously a big part of '08, ups and downs). For sure, I would be happy if the brass had forgotten he existed. But the two things - and the times - are entirely different.

allentown 2019-08-18 11:57:31 UTC #143

Yes, that definitely is an example of not handling the incident well. I remember reading that Giles statement at the time. I don't remember if we heard anything more from Debbie Nocito. Apparently she still works for the Phillies. I almost said this was an example of how much baseball in general and the Phillies in particular have improved in their handling of domestic violence, but this was just one of innumerable situations which Bill Giles did not handle well. Giles was born into the baseball boys club

zambonir 2019-08-18 17:52:52 UTC #144

Both things are true (Giles and baseball not handling it well). This policy has only existed since 2015.

The Astros did DFA Julio Lugo the minute he was arrested in 2003; now they wouldn't be able to! The Barry Bonds allegations were awful and yet don't really have a role in keeping him out of the Hall (though that fact that many journalists simply think he was a bad person does). He remains a beloved Giants employee (understandably).

Bobby Cox would probably be fired today; the ethics of it all aside the PR would simply not be manageable.

bkox 2019-08-30 22:01:53 UTC #145

This is his 2nd such incident plus a DUI.. I know its MiLB and not MLB but will be interesting to see what kinda punishment is handed down.

julio 2019-08-30 22:06:03 UTC #146

It's not even "minor league baseball" in the sense of any affiliation with MLB. Backman manages the Long Island Ducks, in the Atlantic League, which is independent (not party to the National Agreement). What this means is that any disciplinary action will be taken by either the club, or the Atlantic League leadership - and these people have no relationship with MLB (except their agreement to experiment with rules changes, that is).

zambonir 2019-08-30 23:17:40 UTC #147

Yes ironically Backman is actually a guy who did lose his livelihood and any chance of a major league career (albeit as a manager) without due process or any collectively bargained discipline. The entire league just decided he was unemployable, as is their prerogative.

bkox 2019-08-30 23:37:03 UTC #148

oops.. Get those minor league team names mixed up.. especially since they are always changing

zambonir 2019-08-30 23:57:37 UTC #149

From the story:

His team, the Long Island Ducks, says he "categorically denies all charges against him" and will remain as manager.

One might call such a response, I dunno... bush league?

flyers19rw 2019-08-31 00:05:13 UTC #150

Getting back to Herrera, did anyone else see Pedro Martinez’s discussion yesterday on the MLB channel regarding the changes that LA players face when they leave their area and come States side, especially to the majors. There are many things that are culturally accepted back home that will not fly here. Beyond that, the way that guys play the game also changes. Perhaps things are seen as a “lack of hustle” here aren’t a big deal down there and vice versa. Martinez really emphasized the need of American organizations needing to work on and off of the field with their LA players to get them to understand the changes and make the adjustments. He indicated that this doesn’t happen quickly and may be a years on project.

zambonir 2019-08-31 01:06:00 UTC #151

I think that's definitely true and I think as coaching staffs have gotten younger (and, to whatever extent they have, less white) it has not been that big a deal. Gabe being a prime example, he spent most of his recent career working with Latin minor leaguers and I'm sure in his heart of hearts he does not care about that stuff. But the Phillies media has more in common with Pete Mackanin and whoever it was in Allentown who read Nick Williams the riot act.

zambonir 2019-09-27 18:04:31 UTC #152

julio 2019-10-02 20:48:44 UTC #153

Since it came up in the off-season discussion, I thought to look through the rules concerning players on the Restricted List (specifically, Herrera).

Per MLB Rule 16, Herrera can be reinstated from the Restricted List, since his formal suspension has expired. There are some conditions:

Herrera can submit an application for reinstatement [Rule 16I(a)]. If he does so, a decision about whether to grant reinstatement would be made by the Commissioner (or his designee). However, no such reinstatement is permitted between August 1st and October 31st - so if Herrera applies for reinstatement, there would be no action taken until November, at the earliest.
On the other hand, if the Phillies so chose, the club could request Herrera's reinstatement at any time (since the formal suspension has expired), and that reinstatement would take effect immediately [Rule 16(b)].
Per Rule 16(e), Herrera cannot be unconditionally released while on the Restricted List - in othr words, if the Phils wish to cut ties with him, they'll have to reinstate him first.
It appears that, if Herrera does not request reinstatement (or if he does, and the Commissioner does not approve it), the Phillies could just leave Herrera on the Restricted List indefinitely. If they do so, after two years (e.g., 5/28/21), Herrera would automatically come off the Restricted List, but not back to the Phils Reserve List - he'd become an unrestricted free agent... but the Phils would still have contract obligations to him. As a reminder: Herrera is owed $7.35 miilion for 2020, and $10.35 million for 2021. The Phils have a club option (for $11.5 million) with a $2.5 million buyout, for 2022.

Now, what I guess I expect to happen, given all the above... my guess is that the Phils will reinstate Herrera sometime after October 31st (at his request or their own initiative), and he'll go on the Reserve List (the winter 40-man roster). Then they'll try to trade him, to a club/city where the fans (or most of them, at least) won't know much, or care much about his off-field history. (Think about the Delmon Young situation with the Phillies; a few knowledgeable fans, and some media troublemakers, knew about his history, but the average fan? Now consider Kansas City...)

allentown 2019-10-02 21:06:53 UTC #154

Why can't the Phillies remove him from the 40-man and assign him to Allentown. He has options remaining. He would be eligible for the Rule 5, but then the acquiring team would own the contract. If he elects FA, then I'm guessing we don't have to pay him.

julio 2019-10-02 21:29:58 UTC #155

You cannot option a player off the 40-man roster, and you cannot option a player in the off-season.

The Phils could reinstate Herrera, and then try to outright him. They'd have to get him through waivers (and given his baggage and his contract, he might clear). Yes, he'd be eligible for the Rule 5 draft - but if he clears outright waivers, he wouldn't be taken in the Rule 5 draft (which is more restrictive about what a club can do with an acquired player). And yeah, the Phils could then just let him sit in AAA for two years, and pay him his $20.2 million.

If they really don't want him in consideration for a 2020 active roster spot, asking outright waivers would get him off the roster - but if he has any trade value, this move would abandon any potential trade return - because outright waivers are irrevocable, so if they ask waivers and he's claimed, they get nothing back.

Whatever the options, we'll likely see this story play out in the beginning of November, after the World Series, when the Phils have to finalize their winter roster.

allentown 2019-10-02 22:02:40 UTC #156

I think that a risk well worth taking. Trade value today? Next to zero. There certainly are teams who would take back an abuser, who was never brought to trial and who has served his time in baseball suspension.... but, a guy who played as badly as Odubel did prior to suspension? Nope. If someone does grab him off waivers? We've got $20 million for a 2-year deal with somebody who likely will be more help. If nobody wants him, then he tries to regain his old form in Allentown. Perhaps he re-tunes himself into a better player. It's also added months acting like a good citizen. His value goes up.

I think it a plus to clear the 40-man spot and protect another young player from Rule 5. Whether or not Odubel is on the 40-man, the team certainly can't count on him in CF for 2020. They will have to have a starting CF and another OF who can be a passable CF sub. Neither Herrera nor Quinn will be counted on for that role and Quinn will take a 40-man spot. If either is a significant contributor for even half o next year, that's bonus time.

schillingfan 2019-10-02 22:23:10 UTC #157

I’m confused. If we put Herrera on waivers and he is claimed we eat all but major league minimum of the contract. Can we take him off the 40 man without waiving him? If I were a small market team like Oakland or Kansas City I’d pick him off of waivers as low risk, high possible reward if he returns to form.

julio 2019-10-02 22:31:46 UTC #158

No.

If we put Herrera on unconditional release waivers, and he is released, and subsequently signed by somebody else, we eat the contract (we also eat the contract if he goes unsigned).

If we put Herrera on outright waivers, and another club claims him, they're essentially claiming his contract, not just future rights. The contract remains unchanged, but becomes the responsibility of the claiming club.

schillingfan 2019-10-02 22:42:56 UTC #159

It sounds like the smart play is outright waivers then if we have people we need to protect. Before we need to make the 40 man roster decision we try to trade him, eating money for a decent prospect or trading for someone else’s bloated contract. If we can’t trade him we outright him and hope his contract is picked up. If it isn’t we still have him and his contract and can try to rehabilitate him. He and Franco are a mystery to me, because they show flashes, but can’t be disciplined. I’d send them both to either psychiatrists for ADD medications or some kind of medication, focus guru. I know Curt Schilling went to a guy, between I think 2000 and 2001 who taught him to focus and visualize each pitch.

zambonir 2019-10-02 22:59:52 UTC #160

I think the issue is that because he's gone through the MLB Domestic Violence program, he's essentially unreleasable/outrightable. The Phillies would have to argue that they are releasing him solely based on his performance, not because he has "issues" or is not worth his contract (which they'd likely have to pay anyway). While he has in fact played poorly enough to possibly merit being outrighted, it would be prettty hard for them to argue that it's the only reason, or that they would have done that before the arrest. Especially since he was their starting CF for the two games right before his suspension.

What they could do is a negotiated buyout/release but Herrera would still have to agree to it. It might be a good thing for him under the circumstances but returning to the Phillies would still be better. And that might still be better for the Phillies too, if he can weather the PR storm and actually play decently.

I don't know that the 40-man crunch is so bad that you need to do this stuff, if it's difficult to do. And with just a $6 million AAV he's probably tradeable. If they release him they are still paying luxury tax on him in addition to paying him. If they trade him some of that goes away (and maybe you get a spare part).

BostonRoss 2019-10-02 23:15:35 UTC #161

Why do waivers have to be performance related? Didn’t the Red Sox waive Manny Ramirez when he was performing great?