Odubel Herrera Arrested in AC; Charged with Domestic Violence

[julio]

More that when this happened to Hoskins a week or two ago a much smaller deal was made on talk radio about it.

This. It's the fact that certain players get the benefit of the doubt, and others do not... and if you look at this over time, the players that get the benefit tend not to be the minorities. It's not that Segura didn't make a mistake; it's that mistakes by players are not treated in a consistent manner by the media and the fan base. This is kind of the definition of prejudice, IMHO.

Welcome to Philadelphia.

[Philsmania]

I challenge anyone to find a more racist fan base than the one in Philadelphia. Betcha there isn't one.

[zambonir]

Oh I think Boston can hang.

Also, wasn't the Jay Bruce injury a result of busting up the first base line a couple of times? So was Kingery's and Segura's earlier in the season. There's always a risk and picking your spots makes sense.

[Lucky_Beagle]

I did hear Kruk on the tv broadcast say Kingery should have been on 2nd base on the play in which Harper got thrown out at 3rd the yesterday. Sure enough Hoskins has a base hit and the Phillies end up not scoring a run in the inning which at the time would have tied the game.

[BostonRoss]

It makes no sense to me to call a large group of people such as Philadelphia fans “racist.” Any large group of Americans has some racists. I assume that none of us considers himself a racist; so the group of Philadelphia fans includes some non-racists. What percentage of us need to be racists for us to be a racist group?

Are the WIP hosts who made these comments racists? I don’t listen to them, but those of you who do have enough evidence to form reasonable opinions. No doubt they have a lot of ignorant listeners who agree with them, and I’m sure many of them are racists. But a vocal subgroup of racists doesn’t make the group we are in a racist group.

Maybe there’s data that shows that a higher percentage of Philadelphia fans are racists than in other cities. But it’s dangerous to draw conclusions from something like that, just as it would be dangerous to draw conclusions from a study if it showed that a higher percentage of Latin players didn’t hustle.

Labeling groups based on the behavior of some of their members is problematic.

[zambonir]

The same is true of Philly's rep as hostile fans, there are drunks and bad apples everywhere.

But certain cities have a more prominent history of specific incidents, both overt and subtle.

[julio]

I assume that none of us considers himself a racist;

Almost nobody considers him/herself a racist. Most people with glaring prejudice manage to convince themselves otherwise.

[BostonRoss]

I agree that well publicized incidents can contribute to a city's reputation, but I don't think Philly has had much more in the way of high profile racial incidents in recent years than most other places. Boston seems to have had a lot more, though maybe I'm just more likely to hear about them given where I live. Of course incidents that are not recent often color the perspectives of people from outside an area (Philadelphia and Boston both had well known cases of treating Jackie Robinson badly).

[BostonRoss]

I didn't word that well enough to make my point, which was not about what we consider ourselves. I would say that most of us on this board are not racists regardless of our self perspectives, but yet some would label us part of a racist community.

[zambonir]

When I think of Philly I think of the stuff we are already talking about, just treating/perceiving athletes of color - Dick Allen, McNabb, Iverson, Abreu - differently, rather than things like the Joel Ward incident in Boston. This isn't anything we haven't discussed in other threads though (whether about Allen, or Chase Utley, or anything else).

Of course racist cities and structural racism go far beyond sports.

[Squire]

Amy S. Rosenberg (amysrosenberg)

Criminal case is being dismissed. I guess what I would like out of this situation is some consistency. Everyone's view of what the Phillies should do here seems to line up perfectly with their view of Odubel as a ballplayer. If the Phillies cut ties with Odubel I don't want to see any pictures or commemorating of Brett Myers anymore either in the future.

[el-pietro]

Agree 100% Squire. If this was Nola, Hoskins, Realmuto or Harper the general public opinion would be more favourable to the player.

[andyb]

Agree 100% Squire. If this was Nola, Hoskins, Realmuto or Harper the general public opinion would be more favourable to the player

And if we think those players should get a second chance, then Herrera probably should too. We don't really know much about what really happened here, so that specific information could be enough to not bring him back, but absent that I think most players should get a second chance. There is no track record here, for instance, that we know about as well.

[Lawman]

I have no problems if the Phillies want to bring him back and I have no problems if they want to release him. I suppose from a baseball perspective it makes sense to send him to AAA, let him do some rehab there given that he hasn't played in a few weeks and now All Star break coming, and see if he can get back on track. Or they can see if he can establish some value and trade him I guess.

[allentown]

I have a problem if the Phillies want to release him, based upon what we know thus far. There is the issue of consistency and the Phillies history of harsher discipline for minority players. Beyond that, what kind of 'punishment' is this: "you were a bad boy, so now we're going to send you home and pay you millions of $ to do nothing, oh, and if you find a better baseball situation for yourself, any team can take you at league minimum, while we pay the rest."

Second, I don't think employers should be expected to punish workers, in lieu of the justice system imposing a punishment that all involved view as sufficiently strict. This is saying that extra-judicial punishment is our society's new rule and that loss of livelihood is a suitable extra-judicial punishment. When I was on the school board, we had a case brought to us in which a politically-activist teacher was accused of stealing barn boards from a barn that was slated for demolition by the guy who ran unsuccessfully for the legislative seat held and re-won by the candidate that the teacher campaigned for vigorously. The police valued the barn boards at a nominal amount, teacher pled guilty saying he thought the barn boards would be destroyed in demolition and he wanted to preserve them. Barn owner came to our Superintendent and complained that teacher had been let off very lightly: the owner claimed he had intended to preserve the boards and that their true value pushed the theft into felony status and that the minor slap on wrist teacher received from judicial system was woefully inadequate. The school district should invoke morality clause, institute tenure proceedings, and fire teacher. I was one of 3 board members vigorously arguing against Superintendent's recommendation to begin tenure hearing, thinking this grossly unfair to supercede legal system in which barn owner had ample time to correct police valuation of boards. We were still fighting over this when teacher proposed a resolution that he be suspended for two weeks and the board agreed.

I'm fine if MLB decides that it's normal procedures result in Odubel being suspended without pay for X weeks. The Phillies essentially suspending him for a very long time with pay and allowing any other team to have him for free.

[Florida_Sunshine]

And I think in the mean time you put him back in the minors for both rehab and to see if he can find his game.

[Patchmk88]

Could not agree more with you Allentown. Well said!

[zambonir]

There are some teams that don't want to have an accused domestic abuser on their team, though historically the Phillies are not one of them, and neither are the Astros, Dodgers, Cubs or Yankees. Some fans would prefer their teams take a stronger stance. The only team that has come close was Toronto, who were able to get value for Osuna (though at the time, it wasn't high value) and might have traded him anyway.

But as noted, most people who were quick to say Odubel should be gone either already didn't like him or were just looking at his WAR. The only question now is what MLB's own investigation and disciplinary process brings. He could be suspended for 20 or 40 games tomorrow or his leave could end with no punishment (a la Urias). I don't think there was ever a serious chance he'd be released. If the Phillies don't want him around they will either trade him or they could actuallly option him but given the state of the OF they probably need him.

[Lawman]

I respectfully disagree.

I think that any employer has a right to take a zero tolerance stance when it comes to any illegalities or criminal proceedings. And, while the Phillies have historically not taken that stance, were they to do so - especially given that they are in the entertainment industry, where the public scrutiny is that much higher, it would be understandable.

I wonder if MLB will now suspend him.

[zambonir]

I don't know if any employer should have that right but yes, if you are a baseball team or TV network (look at the Empire actor) you can make a simple public relations decision that it's bad for business or a bad message.

Of course, no one is actually talking about taking away Herrera's livelihood. His worst case is being paid tens of millions of dollars to not play (and even then he'd likely play for another team).

Herrera left court holding hands with his girlfriend and has agreed to 60 days of counseling. Prosecutors said there wasn't enough evidence to pursue without her testimony so MLB will mostly be relying on the same things (albeit with no burden of proof. They could issue a suspension simply for their own send-a-message reasons).

From a baseball perspective I'm not sure the Phillies can make any moves before August 1 based on what Herrera will or will not be able to provide. Unless he's not suspended at all (and investigation concludes quickly) in which case they'll have him for a couple of weeks.