Klentak has stepped down

zambonir 2020-10-04 02:43:16 UTC #21

Still don't know what the guy does other than draw fire from Middleton. He doesn't actualy run the team/make major decisions like Giles and Monty did as president/owners, and he doesn't actually run baseball the way Friedman and Epstein and others do over another guy with the "GM" title.

Who we should actually hire for that job is Kim Ng. She works for MLB now, so she checks off that insider box the Phillies like, but she was with the Dodgers for 10 years, and worked for the Yankees before that.

BostonRoss 2020-10-04 03:03:21 UTC #22

Well, if they hire Dombrowski, at least he couldn't kill the farm system like he does everywhere else. It's already dead.

flyers19rw 2020-10-04 03:03:41 UTC #23

Hendry had some success with the Cubs prior to Ricketts taking over. Since then he has been with the Yankees and has worked with both Girardi and Barber. The three could form a good leadership group.

zambonir 2020-10-04 03:37:47 UTC #24

I understand that, but MacPhail had success everywhere he worked too (and literally the same team, as Hendry). And Hendry's role at the Yankees is minimal. He's a 65 year-old advisor who hasn't run a team in almost a decade, sound familiar? At worst a younger MacPhail, at best a younger Gillick. You don't make him GM, you give him MacPhail's job, but you already have MacPhail (hopefully not, but no difference).

Dombrowski is also tight with MacPhail according to the NBC article. I don't really mind if that's the way to go because I don't think an immediate rebuild is an option. A lot of us might be okay with it but Klentak and Kapler got fired for not winning, not to roll everything back for another 3-5 year plan (which Girardi wouldn't be able to stick around for either).

zambonir 2020-10-04 04:00:52 UTC #25

A ton of info at the Inquirer.

Ned Rice, Klentak’s top assistant, will serve as interim GM and could remain in that position for several months.

“We don’t really have a firm timetable,” managing partner John Middleton said. “One of the things that’s going to potentially play havoc with this offseason is COVID. I think we have to be flexible, and we have to be nimble.”

Team president Andy MacPhail will be more involved in baseball operations, according to Middleton, but not in a GM capacity. Longtime former GMs Pat Gillick and Terry Ryan work for the team in advisory roles, but neither is interested in being a GM again.

“I think the problem the Phillies have had for a hundred years is they don’t evaluate talent well,” (Middleton) said Saturday, when general manager Matt Klentak agreed to step down after five consecutive non-winning seasons. “It was the problem a hundred years ago. It was the problem 50 years ago. There have been two periods in the Phillies history where we had bursts that resulted in two World Series [champion] teams, and other than that, we’ve been hit and miss.”

“Matt’s had a pretty successful track rate with free agents. We just haven’t been able to bring up the people internally to support them,” Middleton said. “We just haven’t produced the guys. We haven’t produced the talent yet, and that’s a problem that’s haunted us.”

Klentak traded the Phillies' top pitching prospect before the 2019 season, and Sixto Sanchez had an electrifying rookie year for the Division Series-bound Miami Marlins. The deal, which brought star catcher J.T. Realmuto, was roundly applauded at the time. But the Phillies were unable to sign Realmuto to a contract extension and now face losing him in free agency.

“I don’t hold that against Matt at all,” Middleton said ,although he later claimed that his stance on the trade was, “If you don’t extend J.T., I wouldn’t trade Sixto. The baseball people thought they could get the extension.”

andyb 2020-10-04 04:12:37 UTC #26

It made complete sense to extend JT when they made the trade like they did for Halladay. And while the last 2 years worked out for JT personally, I am guessing he would have been open to a 6 or 7 year deal for less than $20 million a year AAV at that time. I am not sure how aggressive the Phillies were in offering it though as they were up against the luxury tax threshold. Every catcher (and catcher's agent) knows that betting on a catcher to stay healthy and improve for 2 more years is a risky bet. Both sides had incentives to get that deal done 2 years ago.

Maybe Klentak misled Middleton that he could get it done. Or maybe Middleton didn't realize they would threaten to exceed the tax threshold and then vetoed it. Hard to know who is at fault.

Dirk41 2020-10-04 04:52:55 UTC #27

Should have hired her 5 years ago

Dirk41 2020-10-04 04:57:30 UTC #28

It sounds like Klentak was sacrificed to appease who-knows-who while not having to pay anyone else. Also sounds like JT is gone. The fact that Middleton himself could remedy both of those things is infuriating as he takes pictures in Ashburn Alley with an air horn and makes strong statements about how much he wants to win again. More and more it seems as if likes to be seen as a rockstar owner than actually win.

zambonir 2020-10-04 06:49:11 UTC #29

Well, things clearly didn't go according to Klentak's plan! The best-laid plan would have been to have a playoff team last year, and have Pivetta work out, and not have Robertson (and Herrera for that matter) flame out, and maybe even deem one of Hernandez or Franco to be worth keeping, at least until Bohm came up. Had all that happened, they could have been more aggressive about getting JT prior to arbitration without this year's CBT coming into play. Instead they had to sign two pricey free agents, one (Wheeler) for slightly more than I think they might have initially hoped, and they lowballed JT In arbitration, and JT and his agent were on a mission to get a certain number, and/or hit the open market as it inched closer.

And you gotta think Middleton knows what that number is and either has no interest in meeting it, figures he can still write the check, or is confident JT won't sign until January or February. It's pretty unimaginable to me that we might not have a general manager for several weeks after free agency begins, or that the owner would eat up half his newly available cap space before he starts the job. But losing JT, while not the end of the world, is also pretty unimaginable.

zambonir 2020-10-04 07:06:35 UTC #30

Wow, this was one I hadn't read yet.

Ned Rice, Klentak’s front-office confidant and assistant general manager, will be the interim GM.

A search for a new general manager, Middleton said, could take an entire year because of complications brought on by the coronavirus pandemic. The Phillies may have changed the voice of the GM on Saturday, but the tone could sound very similar as the team enters a pivotal offseason.

“If you’re talking about a permanent hire, that would be one issue,” Middleton said of Rice’s being too similar to Klentak. “If you’re talking about something that could be two-three months or at most a season, that’s an entirely different kettle of fish. Frankly, that’s a totally different concern. It should be.”

In a way this bodes well - it sounds like MacPhail actually is on the clock, and Middleton recognizes things would really have to break right for this core to accomplish anything over the next two seasons, and a rebuild-minded GM is more likely than a win short-term guy.

(Wait I take that back, hadn't read to the end. So we're really supposed to be impressed by what MacPhail did 30 years ago?)

When asked about MacPhail, Middleton said: “You do know that he’s won two World Series titles? You do know that Pat Gillick, who’s in the Hall of Fame, has only won three? You know that John Schuerholz, who’s in the Hall of Fame, has only won two? Yeah. It’s kind of why I have confidence in him. ...

"Look, he’s done this before. He’s done it well.”

bkeich 2020-10-04 07:22:57 UTC #31

Makes it sound like the Phils might as well cancel their 2021 and 2022 seasons as they are not going to try and improve.

I am reminded of when this regime took over and announced (and then actually did) that they were going to take a year to evaluate.

It is terrifying that we signed a player for more than $300M and we are not going to try and win during his prime. I wonder if we could trade Harper for 4 top prospects. I doubt it with his pay, but that would be better than trying to hold on to a .500 team The idea that they are going to take a year to find a GM makes it seem like they are going to waste Harper.

Dirk41 2020-10-04 11:46:56 UTC #32

Is any other team crying poor like this?

andyb 2020-10-04 13:09:32 UTC #33

The point is this never should have gotten close to arbitration. The signing should have been announced as the trade was made. I bring up Halladay again. If one makes a deal when you give up significant resources you want to lock up that player long term if you have zero quality replacements.

Most of this board (not you I think) criticized me for saying the trade was for 2 years of Realmuto (as opposed to 5 years of Alfaro and up to 7 of Sanchez). When a contract was not finalized immediately there was no way we were going to sign JT for less than market price. Now that price has increased after 2 years.

So the trade is likely a failure for 2 reasons. One, I imagine that the Marlins will get much more WAR out of their end than the Phillies did out of their end. It was basically even this year only because Alfaro had an awful post Covid year. But second, JT was not good enough to get the Phillies into the playoffs and it was a win-now trade. That is not all of JT's and the Phillies' fault, but much of it was. Even if we had better luck JT was not making us a good team. He would have us a team good enough to lose in the first round of the playoffs.

Klentak's 2 big trades are just ending up as complete failures. They hurt our future. They hurt our present (Crawford could be playing us SS and saving us the money we paid either Didi or Segura). And they helped leave a team that was older and overpriced. Decisions have consequences. We also needed to build a decent farm system. That hurt just as much as we made bets on pitchers that did not come through and really failed to bring up good young positive WAR players. Between Hoskins, Haseley, Kingery, and even Bohm we have gotten no 3+ WAR seasons yet. Best was Kingery at 2.8 last year and his other 2 years balance that out.

Klentak seems a smart guy that was adept at building a modern baseball organization. He just did not evaluate players that well.

Dirk41 2020-10-04 13:57:21 UTC #34

The JT trade also seems like it was a bit of a signal to Harper as it was noted for a long time how much Harper always liked JT.

allentown 2020-10-04 14:12:09 UTC #35

I agree with the second part, not the first. Klentak thoroughly earned his demotion. It's clear from the articles cited here, as we previously suspected, that Klentak was hired to give the Phillies a state-of-the-art analytical function and to improve the sorry immediately prior history with amateur player procurement and development. He did neither. His analytics department has been a behind-the-curve amateurish joke. The pharm has gotten worse under his stewardship, although the first round picks have generally been better from the draft. The international player acquisition and development has remained poor to bad, less good than what preceded Klentak and with no housecleaning of the guys in place. His efforts at building a pitching staff were very close to awful. It never, during his tenure, felt like we had a baseball organization pulling in the same direction, following a sustained, consistent approach. The Phillies prospects are no brighter after Klentak's five years than they were before he arrived.

To win, you have to adapt your approach to maximize the output from the players you have. Their skills are what they are. You can't fad chase as Klentak seemed to do, trying to ape a successful MLB team, whose players have very different talents than your players. Middleton was correct when he said that the Phillies organization remains deficient in assessing talent. The fading into the past golden age around the 2008 team was built on the ability to assess talent.

LoneStarPhan 2020-10-04 14:39:00 UTC #36

Reading these posts fills me with disappointment.

A simple measure of success is making the playoffs. The Phillies have failed for nine years in a row. This year, more than half of the teams made the post season. The Phillies are, based on their record, a below average team.

MacPhail may have had many successes in baseball, but since joining the Phillies, he had overseen only failure. We are now being told that we can expect another season at least, of the same.

allentown 2020-10-04 15:10:09 UTC #37

Unfortunately, likely well more than a season. We are a below .500 team, which can't afford to keep all of its best players and really has nobody one can point to with confidence as likely to come up to majors next year and provide significant help. We have Stott, who may or may not be able to stick at SS and we have Marchan. It's a very weak farm, with just the hope that the guys who were in short-season or DR ball in 2019 might develop into something good. We need people in the organization who excel at identifying talent.

flyers19rw 2020-10-04 16:11:19 UTC #38

This hits the nail on the head. I commend Middleton for being willing to spend. Unfortunately its who it is spent on at various levels that seems to be the problem. The organization was in disarray when he took the reins with ownership.
(1) Front office- That a complete house keeping was in order was not in doubt. The problems began with the hiring of McPhail who in turn brought in Klentak; a person who did not have enough experience in picking the type of personnel to do a complete re-fit of the organization. Klentak emphasized analytics which is all well and good. However if the person utilizing them doesn't know how to use them properly with the personnel that they have at hand, failure is guaranteed.
(2) Field management.-Bringing in Kapler was doomed-no experience with problems from his time with LAD which came out after the hire. Kapler brought in Young and Malee which in turn set back the hitters and pitchers. The ripple effect was happening.
(3) Player acquisitions.-The problem of identifying talent that Allentown cites also showed in the players that Klentak brought in to the club. Arrieta-bad choice; aging pitcher in decline who already had had arm issues. Santana-not a good BA; marginal SLG; high K rate; poor in the field. Robertson- a RP who had been seriously used in NY and probably due to break down from it. Note that the Yankees had a choice to either re-sign him or Britton and took the latter. Probably knew something? They don't pass on good pitching.
(4) Amateur scouting. The record from the drafts and LA signings speak for themselves. After the first round, the drafts have been as weak as any club in the majors over the last five seasons. LA borders on a joke when the organization doesn't even know the age of the top prospects that they are signing. Again evaluation stands out as an issue.
These things point to the club to needing to hire someone out of the NYY or TB organizations since they seem to be the best at not only identifying talent at all levels but then properly grooming it.

allentown 2020-10-04 16:34:30 UTC #39

There are other organizations that seem to find talent. Toronto has reaped a lot of talent from Latin America. It wasn't even deep dives for talent, they took sons of former top major leaguers and scored big. I was amazed at their AA team in 2019. By the quirk of ticket selection, my down to only 6 games at Reading in 2019 included 2 against Toronto. Their talent level at young ages basically lapped ours. Miami has found a ton of talent in the draft. Realmuto was a third rounder. They have a pathetically small MLB salary budget, but have once again leaped ahead of us. They can never sustain it, because they lack the budget to keep their plus players, but they do quite well in identifying talent.

zambonir 2020-10-04 17:43:39 UTC #40

Salisbury does think MacPhail will probably leave the organization. There was talk of him retiring even before his last contract. The idea being, they will slow-play this hire in part because of COVID but also in order to get a new President, who will hire their own GM, rather than immediately hiring a GM.

Since 2021 is neither the year to start a full rebuild (if it was, they already blew it by not being deadline sellers, even in this weird year) nor a year to run at the World Series (can't really be done without paying the luxury tax), and payroll cuts are also likely, it might not be a big deal. There's also not going to be a normal season in 2022, that I think we can be sure of.

But if the Phillies can't win anything in the next two years, do they even try to sign JT? Will Nola and Girardi even be here for the next playoff series? Harper is a whole other problem, but that's really up to him.

In the moment though, the move really is kind of a joke. MacPhail and Ned Rice now run the team so firing Klentak was for PR reasons only. And the search committee for the new GM is MacPhail, Gillick and Terry Ryan, so no new blood or new ideas, as well as the two people who personally hired Klentak and Almaraz.