Hall of Fame Discussion 2022 and Beyond

[zambonir]

Attempted murder. And hey, whether you think that actually is worse than statutory rape or some of the other things Rose and Nails have been accused of (as well as others we might not even know about) is a personal choice.

Obviously he does not loom quite so large in Phillies history either.

[allentown]

Ugeth Urbina,

Wow, didn't even remember his part-season in Philly. He ended his career in Philly.

[zambonir]

Pitched a lot of innings (but that was a fairly early-season trade IIRC). He probably would have been re-signed by the Phillies if not for the arrest.

Not defending him at all, but he was also a victim of crime. Things were just tough down there. No telling if law enforcement can be trusted from both incidents either.

Urbina's mother rescued after raid in Venezuela

And of course I reckon our own country's forefathers (or frontier heroes) probably were guilty of the same thing he was accused of (violently assaulting workers on his ranch). But you could say that about Nails and Rose too.

[California_Dreamin]

I remember Urbina well...he caused the departure of both Placido Polonco AND Ed Wade and possibly delayed the Phils arrival as a NL East powerhouse by a couple of years. Oh, he was a workhorse, no doubt about that, pitched in 81 games in 2005, including the last 6 in the team's failed attempt to corral a wild card berth in the NL.

But the game I will always recall was on the final Monday night of the season, Phils a mere 1 game behind Houston for the wild card lead and with a favorable last week schedule, 6 games against the then mediocre Mets and Nats, 3 at home, 3 on the road. Not only that, the team was becoming an offensive juggernaut, they had scored double digit runs in 7 of the last 16 games. The lineup, featuring Rollins, Utley, Howard, Burrell, Abreu, Lieberthal and near HOFer James Lofton was at the top of their game. Momentum was growing, expectations were high.

Anyhow, on that Monday night, Brett Myers pitched 7 solid innings and the Phils took a 5-2 lead into the 8th inning. With another near HOFer Billy Wagner ready to close it out in the 9th all Urbina had to do was get through the 8th. He didn't. 4 hitters, 3 hits, 4 runs later, the Phils were stunned to be trailing 6-5 and lost the game. I recall the stunned responses here on this site and Urbina, who was never very popular because the Phils traded the popular and talented Polonco to Detroit for the reliever, was cast as the villain. The Phils, lethargic and downcast, lost the next night 3-2, before rebounding and winning their final 4 games to finish 88-74. It was to no avail as the Astros finished at 89-73. Of course it did not help that Ed Wade had traded Polonco for Urbina because he favored David Bell at 3rd base and it was Bell who had made a 2 out, no one on in the 9th inning a week early against the Stros that eventually led to a 2 out, 2 strike home run by Craig Biggio which turned a 6-5 victory into an 8-6 loss.

When the season ended ownership felt that Wade had to go and brought in Pat Gillick, who would bring the team 3 strong seasons, 2 playoff berths and of course a World Series title. I have little doubt Wade would have survived had the Phils made the playoffs IN 2005 and that team might have done some damage in the playoffs, they were a very strong club.

As for Urbina, while he did get in trouble with the law during the off season there was no way the Phils were bringing him back the next year. That Monday night loss stung the organization deeply and in fact carried over into 2006, culminating in Gillick making several moves, including dealing Abreu for nothing. The 2006 team finished strong and by 2007 they were on their way to the best 5 year stretch in Phillie history.

One wonders how things might have changed for Urbina, Wade, Abreu and GIllick had UU held that 5-2 lead entering the 8th inning of that ultimately ill fated game in 2005.

[zambonir]

Well, I think Wade might have brought him back. Because he loved veteran relievers, and because it would have looked even worse to give up Polanco for nothing - though they originally were going to do just that, they were not expecting him to accept arbitration.

I don't really recall Polanco being that popular; while Bell was the real culprit, it was the combination of the two that blocked Utley and at the end of the day the trade ended that. Even before then, fans who weren't dying to get Rolen out of town didn't see the return on that trade as being too impressive, though Polanco was the best of it by far.

And there is nothing Urbina did in what you described above that Jose Alvarado didn't just do in Game 6 of the World Series!

[California_Dreamin]

Nope, Polonco was becoming very popular in Philadelphia in 2005. In fact a few days before he was traded he was moved to 3rd base and hit 2 home runs in a game while Utley was playing at 2nd base and had an average over .300 [no one cares about this anymore but in 2005 it was still considered important.] It was Bell that was unpopular.

As for Wade, had the team made the playoffs in '05 Wade would have been retained. The organization was incredibly loyal to those in power then and they would never have fired him had they made the playoffs for the first time in a dozen years.

And to compare what Urbina did with Alvarado seems silly to me. What Urbina did likely kept the team from making the playoffs, what Alvarado did only occurred after some of his herculean efforts helped the team get within two wins of a World Championship. One had earned some grace, the other never gave himself a chance to receive such grace.

[zambonir]

I just don't think you ever define relievers - or make decisions about their worth - by those moments. They happen. Sometimes in bigger spots than others. See also Lidge, Billy Wagner (when he was with the Mets against us), countless others.

And the Phillies also lost the next game to the Mets before finishing 4-0 that year so that game in and of itself did not have to be the end. Plus they got swept by the Astros at home in early September. That's what really kept them from making the playoffs.

[California_Dreamin]

Huh? Of course relievers are defined by those moments, thats what makes what they do so precarious and challenging. When Wade made the deal, and it was not a popular trade because Phillie phans had come to like Polonco's professionalism and really disliked Bell, Wade made a specific point of saying he had acquired Urbina for the specific purpose of getting through that crucial 8th inning, the Bridge to Lidge as I like to call it.

And as that Phillie team entered that final week there was an optimism from Manuel down that this team would be dangerous IF it could get to the playoffs. I remember it well. That was a strong team. And in less than 10 minutes, 4 hitters to be exact, the team had seen a 5-2 lead dissolve into a 6-5 loss, a loss that likely carried over into the next night, a 3-2 loss. Look, I am not suggesting that Urbina cost that team the playoffs. BUT, A] Wade was not popular and had made himself less popular by favoring Bell over Polonco, B] defended the Urbina deal by suggesting that his role was imperative in helping get the team to the playoffs and C] Urbina failed to do at precisely the most important moment in the season what he was brought over to do in the first place. And D] though I do not recall the exact details, I do recall that this was the 3rd game Urbina had turned victory into defeat late in the game during a period of about a month.

Time heals most heartbreaks, the Phils were not ultimately derailed by that game or moment and in the end Urbina had to deal with things much worse than losing a baseball game on a cold night in late September. I get it.

But at that moment in time, it was a big deal and in my opinion ultimately sealed the fate of Ed Wade. And the view Phillie phans had of Urbina, even before his tragic mistake during the off season. I do not believe he would have been brought back.

[California_Dreamin]

By the way, when I refer to Bridge to Lidge, I mean the 8th inning bridge to the closer. Urbina's role was to get the team to Wagner. Bridge to Lidge has a ring because of his and Madson's heroics during the 2008 season.

[BostonRoss]

It's easy to forget after his career tanked in 2005, but in 2004, David Bell had the third highest WAR on the Phillies, 4.4 to Polanco's 1.7. With Utley needing to play, it was not at all unreasonable that Polanco was the odd man out. It's easy in hindsight to say they should have traded Bell instead. Bell was three years older, but at 31 he seemed likely not to fall off the cliff that he did fall off.

That said, Urbina was a questionable return for Polanco at best.

[zambonir]

Ryan Madson blew two saves in the 2008 World Series alone! It is just part of being a reliever, and sometimes it happens in the most unfortunate possible spot. At the plate for perfectly good hitters too.

I don't necessarily think Urbina for Polanco was a bad trade. The Phillies didn't really want Polanco to accept arbitration, and both he and they quickly realized they wanted to move on. I believe they tried and failed to trade him in spring training even. Trading Bell simply wasn't going to happen, never mind that he was actually good that year like Ross says. Now of course, this Phillies team might have just eaten Bell's contract and signed Polanco to an extension, but it wasn't going to happen then. We're just lucky they didn't trade Utley!

The Astros did indeed make the World Series that year (even after their closer gave up that home run to Albert Pujols) so for sure, in theory the Phillies might have done the same damage.

Given the subject of this thread I think at least we can all agree that Urbina should not have his number retired.

[California_Dreamin]

zambonir...agree with you, no retired number for UU!

[schillingfan]

Dick Allen was ravaged by the Phillies organization. The racism that he experienced while with the Phillies during history first stretch with the club was more than any normal person should have been forced to experience. It ate him alive. There were many times when my Father went to lunch at an establishment in Germantown and came upon Dick sleeping face down on a table. He and others helped wake him in order to get him home so that he could get himself together for the night’s game.
No one in the Phillies organization gave him the help that he needed to deal with the treatment that he experienced while he was here in his first tour in town. That he was able to put that all behind him, grow as a person and return to Philly later in his career speaks volumes for the character of this too often maligned man.

At that time my husband was a kid working around a gas station in Chestnut Hill where Allen brought his car, He was smoking weed at that time, too. He would shag fly balls that would go forever. My husband was a huge fan.

[Dirk41]

Anyone watching the HOF? It's the most empty ceremony in probably the history of the Hall. There are seats in the front row available

[LoneStarPhan]

I didn't even realize this was happening. It sure didn't get much press coverage in sources I watch or read.

[zambonir]

Last three years had Ortiz, Jeter and Mariano, much bigger names and fan bases (and star players associated with just one team, though Roy also went in with Mariano). I can't even imagine what fan base would travel for McGriff. And St. Louis is a small market, you may have heard.

[Dirk41]

You would think baseball heaven has no bounds....

[zambonir]

That was true in the days of AM radio

[bkeich]

About McGriff, my guess would be Atlanta. I lived there when they traded for him, he was greatly loved there. He was considered a "final piece" in those years, the guy that was suppose to put the team over the top (didn't really happen like it should have).

My guess is most Braves fans from that era still think of McGriff as a special player. I realize his plaque had no team, but I bet the Braves are celebrating his induction.

[zambonir]

Agreed, but he chose to elevate San Diego and Tampa (his hometown as well as a place he played) on the same plane, and his prime was really spent in Toronto and San Diego. I'm sure Braves fans are happy about it, but weren't planning their summer vacation around it like they might have for Chipper and three pitchers.

Which is another factor, you can only go so many times. If Chase, Ryan, Jimmy and Cole all somehow got in over a 10-year period (realizing that's not gonna happen) I probably wouldn't go more than once.