GDT 5/16/18 Philadelphia Phillies (Pivetta) @ Baltimore Orioles (Cashner)

[zambonir]

Second, are we heading for having a number of relievers who pitch in a larger number of games than they are accustom to pitching in? Using 4 to 8 relievers per game is going to run up some pretty large numbers of games for the members of the bullpen. Yes, I know if they have already warmed up, pitching a short stint isn't that gin a deal, but it's a long season and who knows who may tire out? Even with the starter going seven innings, we are often seeing 4 relievers being used to finish the game.

I don't think so, because they've got like, 12-13 relievers (eight on the actual roster at any given time, plus the guys coming and going, and occasionally a ninth in MLB). If the starters are getting pulled after four innings maybe.

As Kapler said, he was more interested in boosting Neris than Ramos. Both equally valid. That Neris was also the right choice to get the out doesn't seem that important given the lead and number of outs, but Neris also hadn't pitched in five days, so overuse not an issue.

What you would have liked is to not have to use Garcia but that wasn't overmanaging.

[Austinfan]

I think the hot start has obscured the fact that this team is still in rebuilding mode.
You have Neris, Ramos, Arano, Rios, Seranthony, and a bunch of potential RPs in the minors.
And a bunch of veterans in Garcia, Hunter, Neshak, Hutchinson.
So decisions will have to be made by July.

One key is deciding what to do with Neris, even if they decide they can't rely on him, they need to maintain his trade value.
So "nursing him back to health" is a long-term strategy whether he stays or goes.

[zambonir]

Neris is fine. Relievers are variable. He's still pretty young and he hadn't been a closer that long either. It's always a small sample with relievers. Hunter is actually having a worse season, he just hasn't done it in the ninth. And Neshek can't even pitch. Doesn't mean they can't all be good in two months or next year. Also doesn't mean they will be.

And Hutchison is still fungible. The better the rotation is the less useful he is, you don't need two long relievers.

If the young bullpen depth is so strong that they can trade any of these guys (whether at the deadline or next off-season) more power to 'em.

[donaldorc]

Neris is fine. Relievers are variable

You need to use the word that Shillingfan uses "fungible!"

[schillingfan]

Neris is fine. Relievers are variable

You need to use the word that Shillingfan uses "fungible!"

I hate to admit this, but I got the word from Peter Gammons. It's still a really good descriptive word.

[zambonir]

Yeah, fungible is a longtime favorite. But they are not synonyms. And relievers are not as fungible as they used to be. More and more are actually putting together sustainable careers, and fewer and fewer of them are failed starters. Neris has elite talent and so do a lot of these young guys

What they may ultimately be, still, is disposable. Let them throw gas or splits until they end up having surgery or flaming out, bring up the next round. In that sense they are still fungible in that it's wise to move on to that next guy before you have to pay someone a lot of money, or before he flops.

[Philsmania]

I think the hot start has obscured the fact that this team is still in rebuilding mode.
You have Neris, Ramos, Arano, Rios, Seranthony, and a bunch of potential RPs in the minors.
And a bunch of veterans in Garcia, Hunter, Neshak, Hutchinson.
So decisions will have to be made by July.

One key is deciding what to do with Neris, even if they decide they can't rely on him, they need to maintain his trade value.
So "nursing him back to health" is a long-term strategy whether he stays or goes.

Wasn't there talk in the post-2016 offseason that Neris (and Ramos) might be valuable trade chips as Giles was after 2015? Good, young, controllable bullpen arms who were probably a luxury on a rebulding team, so some said. Did the Phillies miss the boat on this one or was that boat never really in?

[tom81]

This team is in a try to win now mode without sacrificing the future. Any young controllable good players like Neris, Ramos, Hernandez, etc have more value to this team than to most other teams. Competing as a young group together has value even if they come up short. The players we are seeing now are the core.

[zambonir]

Neris and Ramos just never had the same kind of "proven closer" value and their stuff was probably a tick short of what Giles had too. Ramos couldn't even stay in the bigs last year. If the Phillies had had anyone in 2016 who could fetch 2-4 players I'm sure they would have done it.

If all these youngsters look viable, than sure, you might have the luxury of including one of them in a July trade, especially if you're adding back a veteran bullpen arm too. You could even - like Houston before us - give up on Neshek if it looks like he isn't needed next year.

But just because they are still "evaluating" doesn't mean they are still rebuilding. Except for Hutchison who might ultimately go on waivers, everyone on that list above can help, both this year and in future years. It's the starters who can't all stay forever (and it sure looks like Eshelman's off that list for now huh?)

[bkeich]

Ramos couldn't even stay in the bigs last year

To be fair Ramos was sent down because of basically losing his head. He has good stuff, has a scary slider/slurve that if it develops further could be a plus plus pitch, even at the ML level. He certainly has end of game (setup or closer) potential, he just needs to continue to demonstrate that last years brain fart wasnt normal (or at least he can control it enough not to appear completely nuts, because all closers are pretty crazy anyway). I actually see him in an 8th and 9th inning role for 10+ years if he can keep his head and control his best pitch and mix in his solid fastball.

I wouldnt trade Ramos at this point without a huge return. I think he is undervalued because of last years bump, which hopefully was just a young, overly excited guy losing his head a little.

Neris to me is also a sell low candidate at the moment. He may not be a closer, but he is a very good reliever with a very good fastball and a cutter that is unhittable. He needs to get better at mixing them in, and honestly some of that is just his catchers getting a better feel for him (remember, Alfaro has only caught him for less than 20 innings still). His potential so outweighs his current value that he is almost untouchable IMHO because you arent going to get much for him at the moment and that would be criminal. I would be surprised if he isnt still pitching in 2028, he has all tools and makeup, he is just being put in a position he isnt quite ready for yet.

[Philsmania]

I cannot help but wonder if they'll make a run at Kimbrel this offseason.

[zambonir]

I agree. Though Neris is not a kid, he is 29 and could be making $5-6 million by 2020, at which point you might just move on because overpaying relief pitchers as they potentially decline is just bad business. But they could also buy out of his arb years with a modest three-year deal.

2028? Sure, it's possible, He could also be out of baseball in three years. Antonio Bastardo is still only 32.

I cannot help but wonder if they'll make a run at Kimbrel this offseason.

I really don't think so. So much talent in-house, and I really think they'll get serious about the no-roles thing. The Astros won the World Series without a closer, and the Dodgers have a great closer who still got hammered in the small sample of the playoffs.