Franco Optioned to AAA

[flyers19rw]

Its not my point to say that MM is the next Trout or close to that but he does have talent that has been held back by the approach that the Phillies have used in developing him. I'm lifting this post from the poster "phorever" from another site, keeping in mind that mid season last year, Moniak decided to go back to hitting the way that he did when he was in H.S.:
"since april, moniak has ba=282/obp=344/slg=460/ops=804. i don't know his road split in april, but overall he is 253/423/461/784 on the road and just 274/322/426/749 at the hitting haven in reading. eastern league hitting is shockingly poor this year (meaning we might need to reconsider the performances of our pitchers there), so that moniak's overall ops of 765 ranks a surprisingly high 11th in the league among qualified hitters. 804 would be 5th in a league in which he is the 8th youngest player."
There is no single way to improve the performance of all players. For some, using the launch angle approach might be successful while not working for others. MM looks like he is one of those where it hasn't panned out well.
MM may not be the only one where the LA approach has failed. Franco was urged to incorporate it into his approach because he was hitting too many ground balls which were unproductive due to his lack of speed. So he went with the new approach and saw his pop up rate rise about 5% over past seasons. The same is true for Cesar. With the way that he has been dipping his shoulder in order to get more loft on the ball, I would guess that Hoskins is as well but I haven't seen figures for him on that.

[julio]

Franco was urged to incorporate it into his approach because he was hitting too many ground balls which were unproductive due to his lack of speed. So he went with the new approach and saw his pop up rate rise about 5% over past seasons.

Does this actually mean much? Yeah, his popup rate is higher - but his OPS and OPS+ in 2019 look almost exactly like his 2017.

The same is true for Cesar.

Cesar's OBP peaked in 2016 (he was 26) and has been declining ever since. You may attribute this to coaching - to me, it looks absolutely normal - it's what happens to ballplayers. Hernandez is one of those guys who have one outstanding skill - OBP - and little with which to compensate when that skill starts to deteriorate.

Don't assume that because a sportswriter chose to write an article about popup rates changing, that those changes actually mean much of anything.

[flyers19rw]

Don't assume that because a sportswriter chose to write an article about popup rates changing, that those changes actually mean much of anything.

It does indicate a change in hitting style; in these situations, the one supported by the hitting coach, Mallee. He advocates using an uppercut swing which, most cases, adds loft angle to the batter's swing, which in turn, would increase the amount of balls put into the air. An increase of five percent (Franco, previously a notorious ground ball hitter) or more (Hernandez) seems to endorse the fact that the batter has altered their hitting approach. Unfortunately for both of these players, the new swing pattern has not had a positive impact on their production. It also had a negative effect on Moniak who attempted to use it until discarding it last mid summer and then saw his numbers rise.

[phillychuck]

I think there is enough evidence available to us to conclude that the new approach (announced publicly and supported by all the "drive-line" hires) is at least not really helping most of the hitters, and may be hurting some.

I honestly like a flexible approach tailored to each hitter--we shouldn't have 12 position players on the roster who all have roughly the same swing mechanics, or who are all encouraged to have roughly the same mechanics.

Baseball is tough during development and in the majors. A good hitter succeeds about 30% of the time, and slumps are inevitable. Imagine you're one of those minor leaguers or young major leaguers, and you're slumping. If your coaches advocate crossing your hands and starting the bat on your hip (extreme exaggeration, I know) you would at least try it, or modify your approach somewhat toward that style. I'm not sure that "talent" eventually leads to success if bad coaching gets in the way. Teams need flexible coaches who coach players, not styles. This is where I think the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, etc. excel--they don't buy into swing mechanics fads, they coach players.

Additionally, I think "philosophical" coaching is more effective than mechanics coaching, anyway. Get Kingery to stop swinging at pitches in the dirt. Get Hoskins to shrink his "less-than-2-strike" "go" zone. Get at least some of the hitters to take pitches to the opposite field more often. Work on pitch recognition skills. Spit on low sliders. Etc.

[julio]

Unfortunately for both of these players, the new swing pattern has not had a positive impact on their production.

I agree with this.

But that said, the overall statistics don't indicate that it has had a negative impact, either. The performance of both Franco and Hernandez is consistent with past performance and aging trends.

There may be more correlation between the hitting approach and Moniak's performance - although that's assuming causation based on the appearance of a correlation. Dangerous.

I honestly like a flexible approach tailored to each hitter--we shouldn't have 12 position players on the roster who all have roughly the same swing mechanics, or who are all encouraged to have roughly the same mechanics.

Absolutely. This should go without saying. Individuals have different capabilities, different physiologies. There is no "shoe" that fits all. To the extent that the Phillies are trying to conform all the batters to the same mechanics, they'll have trouble - unless and until they build the roster out of exclusively players who have the particular capabilities that fit that batting style. It's like a football coach coming into a situation and installing his pet "system," whether or not he has players who can execute that system.

[phillychuck]

Do I hear the echoes of Chip Kelly?

One other thing I'm seeing is that we are explaining drop-offs by 28-29-30 year olds by the aging curve, but the only younger-than-peak player who has shown improvement is Kingery, and we're not recognizing that the "young-player-improvement piece" is missing from a lot of guys. On such a young team, the improvement toward 27 should be outweighing the fall-off above 27. And some of the 26/27/28-year-olds should be having career years and carrying us for a while.

[flyers19rw]

I'm jumping the shark here to a degree by digressing away from the optioning of Franco and moving into the topic of the Phillies hitting approach but they two subjects may well related.
Going back to Phillychuck's post; the sixth in this thread, the sending down of Franco may well be seen as punishing a player for doing what management requested of him when it caused MF to have a drop in production. I fear that this demotion could cause a split in the clubhouse between Kapler and the other LA players. It has been reported that the manager sought out Neris, who sees Franco as his best friend on the team, to discuss the situation with him. The surprising demotion of Franco, warranted or not; the constant criticism of Hernandez over the years; the way the entire tenure of Herrera has been handled; and the like do not paint a picture of a Latino friendly environment. It makes me a bit uncomfortable.

[Lawman]

I fully agree with you.

All I'm saying is that either fans have to learn to look at the players, not the team PR machine, to really figure out if a player is worth the hype or the team needs to figure out how to better prepare players to reach their ceiling.

[mdougherty12]

Its not my point to say that MM is the next Trout or close to that but he does have talent that has been held back by the approach that the Phillies have used in developing him. I'm lifting this post from the poster "phorever" from another site, keeping in mind that mid season last year, Moniak decided to go back to hitting the way that he did when he was in H.S.:
"since april, moniak has ba=282/obp=344/slg=460/ops=804. i don't know his road split in april, but overall he is 253/423/461/784 on the road and just 274/322/426/749 at the hitting haven in reading. eastern league hitting is shockingly poor this year (meaning we might need to reconsider the performances of our pitchers there), so that moniak's overall ops of 765 ranks a surprisingly high 11th in the league among qualified hitters. 804 would be 5th in a league in which he is the 8th youngest player."
There is no single way to improve the performance of all players. For some, using the launch angle approach might be successful while not working for others. MM looks like he is one of those where it hasn't panned out well.
MM may not be the only one where the LA approach has failed.

I've never seen Moniak play, so I can't say how his current swing mechanics compare to any point in the past. I do know how to search for his name on Fangraphs, though, so I now know that in 2019, Moniak's LD%, FB%, and IFFB% are all the highest rates of his professional career. Given that he's hitting the ball in the air more than ever, I'm not convinced that he's actually abandoned the "launch angle" approach as asserted.

[phillychuck]

He gave an interview last year about abandoning it, so I'd be inclined to believe he did. I believe it was in the Inquirer and I'm blocked...

In an athletic article

Phillies minor league notebook: Mickey Moniak playing best...

he says he's trusting his instincts and relaxing, but he told somebody last year he was going back to what got him drafted 1.1.

[Austinfan]

I doubt they teach "launch angle" as an inflexible mantra, rather, it's a swing designed to avoid driving low pitches (as more pitchers throw 2 seamers and changeups) into the ground - wouldn't surprise me if they teach a flatter angle when swinging at pitches waist high and above.

I do think the new coaching may be responsible for the high rate of Ks for so many minor league hitters - but we need tor reserve judgment, just like teaching a pitcher to throw a changeup, the first year or so it may be a disaster - until the player gets comfortable. And some of the high K rates may simply reflect past scouting philosophy, focusing on power rather than contact and plate discipline. Not sure anyone can save Ortiz.

Nor do I see any major negative trends with talent:
2016 draft: Moniak, Gowdy (year after TJ), Romero (4), Irvin (5), Dyer (8), J Garcia (10), Stephan (11), Hall (14)
2017: Haseley (1), Howard (2), Seabold (3), Lindow (5), Maton (7), Brodgon (10), Parkinson (12), Dohy (16), Listi (17), Jones (18), Russ (19), Hernandez (21), B Brown (33), Stewart (39)
2018: Bohm (1), Eastman (4), Vierling (5), Simmonds (6), Cotto (7), Pipkin (9), McKay (16), Killgore (17), O'Hoppe (23), Carr (31),
Harder to get a feel for 2018, but doesn't look as strong as 2017, which could be one of the best of the last two decades.

LA last four seasons:
Aparicio, L Garcia, Torres, Muzzioti, Morales, the rest are in GCL and DSL, so hard to judge.
Gogoliski and some Australia/New Zealand guys who are also too low to judge yet.

[julio]

...in 2019, Moniak's LD%, FB%, and IFFB% are all the highest rates of his professional career. Given that he's hitting the ball in the air more than ever, I'm not convinced that he's actually abandoned the "launch angle" approach as asserted.

He gave an interview last year about abandoning it, so I'd be inclined to believe he did.

So... Maybe Moniak believes that he abandoned what he was coached to do by the Phillies, and believes that he's "gone back to what he did in high school"... but maybe the coaching actually had some effect, even if Moniak isn't aware of that?

If Mickey believes that he's "back to what worked for him," and that helps his confidence... that's good. Whether what he believes is even close to reality does not matter. Results matter, and he's getting results.

[zambonir]

keeping in mind that mid season last year, Moniak decided to go back to hitting the way that he did when he was in H.S.:

This is just another message board fairy tale, from what I recall. As the PC link showed all that was ever really said was the stuff about his friends telling him to relax. There's no evidence he changed his swing back or isn't doing what the coaching staff wants him to do. IIRC the "source" of him saying that was just another message board post (purportedly quoting a friend or family member).

If in fact there have been adjustments, guess what, the coaching staff would be on board! Showing the flexibility you'd want them to have, if he's truly found some middle ground between what they wanted and what he'd been before.

Of course it's a different staff this year too.

As for Franco and Hernandez, neither of them were performing well enough to where their approach should have been sacrosanct. Though in Cesar's case he was having the best year of his career under Mallee before getting hurt. And you can't actually explain hitting instruction as the sole reason for his pop-up rate increasing. If he's still hurt, if his timing is still off, if he's in decline (visually, physically, mentally)...any of those things are going to contribute as much if not more than his intended mechanics.

[Austinfan]

The one adjustment Moniak made that is certain is he started to become more patient at the plate:

BB% first three years: 5.7%, 5.5%, 4.7%
This year -
April/May 4.2%
June/July 11.4%