Franco Optioned to AAA

[California_Dreamin]

allentown...this is what I have been suggesting for a while now. Too many young hitters of promise either flame out or regress when they get to Philadelphia for my tastes. You have mentioned a few of them but there are more. It has become almost an afterthought to most but to me that both Cozens and Walding were let go in the last 10 days.

These were ballyhooed prospects who did well in the minors and that we were genuinely excited about, especially Walding. And whether we want to admit it or not, Hoskins has regressed as a hitter.

There are teams, the Dodgers, Astros, Yankees, Red Sox and Cubs off the top of my head, where players seem to flourish offensively. And there are teams like the Phillies where hitters go to die. This should NOT happen for a team playing in a hitters park like CBP.

There is something systematically wrong with this team and until/unless it is identified and corrected I believe we will eventually watch seeming pure hitters like Bohm and Stotts under perform also once the Phillie Way gets a hold of them.

So sad.

[andyb]

Though if we focus solely on Franco, he did turn out exactly like his scouting reports. He is just not a great athlete so he was going to be limited in range defensively. He also never had great command of the strike zone even if he had a relatively low K rate (which was due largely to offensive aggressiveness).

I don't think the team's instruction is great, but sometimes we ignore what they are working with. It also worries me that they trade away some players like Crawford who have the tools to be better. The organization certainly failed him, but that really seems more personality-driven than quality of instruction.

[David_Criss]

I hope they sent him down with a plan. The man hit 15 homers this year for the Phillies, only Hoskins and Harper have hit more. Does this mean Kingery is the 3B of the future? Guessing Walding, who passed through waivers and is back at AAA and Franco can battle it out for the 1B/3B bench/PH option for next year.
I am not sure how he is with his teammates, but I can tell you this. When I was lucky enough to see this team in May in KC for three straight games, it was Franco who was always smiling, high fiving his teammates, signing autographs, etc. Heck he even tossed a batting practice ball to my 5-year-old granddaughter, so I saw this up close.

[California_Dreamin]

andyb...huh??? Ignore what they are working with? Both Moniak and Randolph were said to have excellent hitting skills, that was the one tool that scouts were convinced of. Heck, Randolph was said to be the best high school hitting prospect coming out.

And everyone and their uncle knew about Franco's "arm bar" hitting style...if this was going to be a problem then why wasn't it fixed. And if Franco was so limited defensively at 3rd and yet the Phils loved him so much for his hitting potential why was he not moved to 1st base when the Phils didn't have Hoskins.

Look, I know this much from living on the West Coast. The Dodgers seem to prepare EVERYONE of their players to hit and play multiple positions and no one ever said Turner was a ballerina at 3rd base. I also find it interesting that players come to the Dodgers after struggling elsewhere and suddenly hit like Ty Cobb.

This Phillie team will be given a pass by me, I can't stand the way they play! They were built to win, built to score, built to provide Philadelphia phans with some flair and excitement. And they are about to lose 2 of 3 to the woebegone White Sox. In typically boring and unimaginative fashion.

If I am Middleton I am already examining what went wrong and what needs to be done to fix it. And no more of "well they are young" or "well we always projected them for 85 wins" This is an almost historically weak NL and 85 wins in this league is no great shakes. And I have serious doubts that they will win that many given the offensive and pitching woes.

This was the weekend to stand up and be counted, especially after their 10-2 win against the Giants. Instead of standing up, they played passively, playing almost not to lose instead of playing to win.

There is a problem in this organization systemically and it needs to be identified and corrected. Or all the great Almaraz drafts in the world won't change anything, players will simply fall by the wayside.

[frylock]

In addition to the young players not developing as you both state, it's also interesting how so many of our acquisitions on the major league roster are hitting at levels below their career norm. I agree there is a systematic issue and I hope they clean house with the staff after the season.

Of course, the issues seem to run deeper (lower levels? organizational approach?) than the major league staff, but the regression of major leaguers is enough to make that move (in addition to any others deemed relevant by the organization).

No reason as bad as we were for so long, to have such a poor minor league system. Not sure if that burden falls more on the front office picking the players, the organization's staff failing to develop players, or both.

[California_Dreamin]

frylock...see my post in the minor league thread. This lack of development is organization wide. I believe players are getting poor or incorrect instruction at the minor league level and it is only getting worse. If I were Middleton I would be furious.

[schillingfan]

Sending Rodriguez down would have made more sense. I never like seeing him come to the plate. I’d prefer Franco.

[andyb]

andyb...huh??? Ignore what they are working with? Both Moniak and Randolph were said to have excellent hitting skills, that was the one tool that scouts were convinced of. Heck, Randolph was said to be the best high school hitting prospect coming out.

And everyone and their uncle knew about Franco's "arm bar" hitting style...if this was going to be a problem then why wasn't it fixed. And if Franco was so limited defensively at 3rd and yet the Phils loved him so much for his hitting potential why was he not moved to 1st base when the Phils didn't have Hoskins.

Randolph was likely a drafting mistake. Moniak has actually developed in a way commensurate with his tools, so he too could have been drafted too high.

Franco's problem was not necessarily an "arm bar". He just did not have the quick hands to wait on pitches like great hitters do. The arm bar was his way to compensate. The Phillies never loved him for his hitting potential like you say. They probably hoped he could consistently hit 30 HR with a low OBP and that his defense could improve to average. It was never the offensive profile where you could hope to move him to first base.

I think our love of the "hit tool" and "baseball players" in the draft for a few years made us a little blind to overall tools and athleticism. We drafted somewhat limited hitters. The Dodgers tend to take better athletes and teach them hitting. The Dodgers also maximized their international signings in a way we have never come close to. When you have all the money in the world and are smart at using it that is a pretty powerful combination.

Franco was just never a great prospects. Fans consistently looked beyond his flaws. This does not mean the Phillies are great at developing players, but Keith Law was probably right all along about Franco.

[California_Dreamin]

Moniak came out of HS with a 70 hitting tool, it was widely reported as such. And Pat Gillick, a guy who is about an astute scout as anyone out there, loved Moniak's hitting style, absolutely loved it. I respect you very much, andyb, and always will, but if you feel at .259 Moniak has developed commensurate with his skills, I sure don't. I saw him hit in HS and he was a stellar hitter, I was thrilled when the Phils chose him.

As for Randolph, well it is easy to say now that it was mistake but we sure didn't think so after his rookie season, we were thrilled with his hit tool. The only concern we had was where he would play, not if he would hit.

Philadelphia's organization has become a place where hitters go to die. Probably why Dickerson took as long as he did to report, he wanted to be a .300 hitter for as long as possible. Let's see what happens with him.

[andyb]

Moniak came out of HS with a 70 hitting tool, it was widely reported as such.

Then that might have been a scouting error. If it is more like a 55 tool then his progression in the system is about what one would have expected. Age 21 at AA is appropriate age for level for a good prospect. He just might not be quite the high level talent we thought we were drafting.

[julio]

. It has become almost an afterthought to most but to me that both Cozens and Walding were let go in the last 10 days.

These were ballyhooed prospects who did well in the minors and that we were genuinely excited about, especially Walding.

Walding? Well, perhaps when he signed - although he was not a top pick. But his professional career has never been anything to get excited about.

Cozens? There have always been concerns about his strikeout rate. Fans got excited when he hit lots of HRs in Reading. But really, if he never amounts to much more than that, he joins a long list of guys who feasted in Reading.

There is a problem in this organization systemically and it needs to be identified and corrected. Or all the great Almaraz drafts in the world won't change anything, players will simply fall by the wayside.

The trouble with this assertion is that essentially all the personnel have been changed in the past half-dozen years - President, GM, manager, minor league director, minor league coaching staffs... there are precious few holdovers.

In my opinion, what I'm seeing is fans imagining nice neat explanations for chaotic and unsatisfying results. People seeing patterns in data that's probably just random. It's what we're hard-wired to do, so it's not surprising.

[Austinfan]

With Moniak, let's just withhold judgment for a while, guys whose bodies change drastically (he's gained 30 lb? since he was drafted) can take time to adjust.

Randolph was a bad pick, like Ortiz and other unathletic "hitters", he seemed to have his bat slow down as he filled out.

It's just that they did such a bad job drafting for so long that turning this farm system around is a 5-6 year process, Klentak didn't get to start until winter of 2015, and then another year or two to make major changes to a hidebound organization. The drafts since 2015 have been a definite improvement.

[California_Dreamin]

andyb...maybe. Look, you could be right and if this is the case, it was a HUGE scouting mistake, one that a team with the very first pick cannot make. However, I think its a coaching problem, and continue to believe the Phils minor league coaching is abysmal. Too many young hitters with strong hitting skills have flamed out for it to be simply coincidental.

If this is the case, and if Klentak indeed inherited them, then he needs to do a mass overhaul of the minor league instruction staff. Let's see how Rojas goes, he is the latest teenage wunderkind that scouts are raving about. I think they are right, just as I thought they were right about Garcia. Yet the last time I checked Mario Mendoza was still a better hitter than Garcia [a .197 average.]

And no more of this balderdash about how the Phils are some kind of genius's for challenging their guys with promotions. Acuna, Guerrero and Bichette never seemed to mind a little challenging. Keith Law is particularly unkind to the Phillies system historically and I always took it to be an unreasonable hatred of the team.

I am ever so slowing beginning to believe he was always right.

[flyers19rw]

CD, I am 100% behind you on the Phillies mismanagement of Moniak. I have relatives and friends who live in San Clemente and they alerted me to the quality of MM when he was in H.S. There wasn’t one scout who had anything bad to say about him except that he had not exhibited a lot of power to that point in his career. He had gap power; consistency at the plate; could run, catch and throw. I doubt if many scouts saw him scuffling through the minors the way that he has. I doubt that all of these scouts that saw MM as a solid major leaguer in the future were wrong. He is what the Phillies have made of him so far and it’s sad.

[California_Dreamin]

julio...I respect your post very much but go back and look at what we were saying about Walding and Cozens when they were signed. We were absolutely ecstatic about Walding's skill level and Amaro waxed poetic about Cozens and we saw the guy grow into a Joey Gallo-lite type hitter in the minors.

I still recall after his near game winning home run last year in Chicago, none other than Gabe Kapler himself said Cozens was a guy who was going to hit a lot of home runs with the Phils. I am still waiting for HR #2.

There are a lot of guys I respect very greatly on this site who follow the draft very closely who insist we got a steal in Walding. Yet he flamed out also.

I know this much. Perception often becomes reality and even if what I perceive as their inadequacies are exaggerated [I don't believe this is the case but even if] I sure can hear the discussions between Williams and Franco in the LHV clubhouse.

I doubt they are casting the Phillies braintrust in a very good light, they were cornerstones a couple of years ago and are failed players now.

One more thing that bugs me. It sure seems like many have accepted this premise that Williams was a flawed hitting prospect. Again, balderdash. He was neck and neck with Nazara/Gallo grouping in Texas and I will never forget the utter excitement on Hamels trade night when Squire announced on this site that Williams had been pulled mid game from his spot in left field. We knew he was Philadelphia bound and the bond he formed with Crawford and Co. was immediate and powerful.

That Reading team was loaded with prospects and we all celebrated what looked to be a future Phillie powerhouse.

Where are they now? Most gone or failed. So sad.

[California_Dreamin]

flyers19rw...I too live in San Clemente and saw MM in high school. He was a great hitter, not 55 tool, much better than that. If he fails to make it, it will be a huge scarlet letter on the Phillies chest.

[julio]

...go back and look at what we were saying about Walding and Cozens when they were signed.

OK. I went to the 2011 draft thread.

Perfect Game ranked Mitch Walding #157 in his draft class. Per Squire, "slightly outside the BA top 200". andyb and allentown indicated that they "didn't mind" the Walding pick. Squire assumed we'd have to go overslot for Walding (we did), but that was because of his commitment to Oregon (top shelf program). I see lots of agonizing over whether he would sign (he was a late sign), but not much in the way of ecstasy about him - he was a fifth-round pick, on merit.

On to the 2012 thread, for Cozens.

fish: "ugh- they went off the reservation with that one."
allentown: "It does seem a strange pick, however."
Jim Callis (quoted from phuturephillies): "23rd best prospect in Arizona per Jim Callis, “athletic big kid who throws hard”. Says the Phillies are more than willing to go off the board than other teams. Not a surprise, here folks."

[Austinfan]

It was obvious years ago that Cozens wasn't going to make it, never could get that K rate down and in Reading, couldn't hit lefties or on the road. His 40 HRs in 2016 was a Reading artifact - 29 at home, his road SA was .441, OPS .766.

The big swing/big power guys are obsolete (except for Judge).
And I've said enough about Williams and Alfaro.
Franco has always been a tease.

I just don't see any malfunction here other than bad drafting and signings.
Hall this year is having a "Cozens" type season: .968 OPS at home, .736 on the road. Red hot the second half
But no one is going to get upset about a 14th rd pick flaming out in AAA ball.

[California_Dreamin]

When Cozens and Hoskins were thumping at Reading we expected both to become solid major leaguers if not stars. Same with Walding, who was thought to be a solid pick at #5 and had a college commitment. I stand by my assertion that far too many seemingly solid youngsters have failed in the Phillie system. Too many.

Unless you wish to fault the Phillie drafting methods, which I am prepared to listen to. Either way, it has led to a systemic failure. In my mind we are in Year 5-6 of the rebuild and excuses are no longer valid.

I do not believe the wack a reliever injury bug is coincidental, I do not believe the Phils almost amazing ability to make solid prospects almost disappear before our very eyes is coincidental and I do not believe that the Phils inability to keep up with a major league wide increase in power hitting is coincidental. I think its an organizational failure.

[California_Dreamin]

AF...really???? Joey Gallo might disagree with you. Or Swarber? Or, I don't know, about 3-4 guys who wear Dodger, Astros or Red Sox uniforms.