Death Notices (OT)

[tom81]

Tom Heinsohn, Champion Celtic as Player and Coach, Is Dead at 86

Tom Heinsohn, Champion Celtic as Player and Coach, Is Dead at 86

[tom81]

Paul Hornung, Midcentury Football’s ‘Golden Boy,’ Is Dead at 84

[Jeff05]

Soumitra Chatterjee: India acting legend dies, aged 85

[Philsmania]

TV producer Herb Solow who helped get Star Trek on the air.

Herb Solow, Producer Who Sold ‘Star Trek’ to NBC, Dies at 89

[Jeff05]

David N. Dinkins, New York’s First Black Mayor, Dies at 93

[Jeff05]

Maradona dies aged 60: tributes and reaction – latest updates

[LoneStarPhan]

Cowboys strength coach Markus Paul has died, team says

[el-pietro]

El Diego is considered one of the two greatest footballers of all time pre Messi/Ronaldo. His performance at the 1986 World Cup is one of the standout World Cup Performances of all time. A lack of a World Cup is what is held against Messi in comparison to Maradona.
I just about missed his career, I didn't really start paying attention to football until USA '94, and he was sent home due to a failed drug test. He was back in Argentina for club football at that point.

Its hard to talk about how important he is, or compare him to an equivalent American icon, Willie Mays perhaps?

Since 1994 he has been far more famous for his off the field antics, bouncing from club to club as manager and other off field roles. His death at a young age is not the shock it was when Kobe died

[LegoDoom]

Even as a young kid I still remember his '86 performance. HBO had a pretty good special about him a few years ago.

Diego Maradona

[Jeff05]

El-Pietro, I'm of the view that if Maradona hadn't scored that goal against England and hand-balled a few minutes earlier, then he'd have been forgotten by most people. One World Cup shouldn't define a career. An equivalent soccer career might be that of George Best's - flashes of astonishing brilliance, but undone (prematurely?) by activities off the pitch. I certainly don't think Maradona can be compared to Mays. Yes, similarly to Maradona, Mays had "that catch"; however, Mays sustained a phenomenally high level for a great many years.

In fact, if Maradona were a MLB player, he wouldn't make the Hall of Fame. He didn't do enough for long enough. Despite having a pretty good career at Naples, it doesn't even compare with that of, say, Lewindowski's at Borussia Dortmund and, now, Bayern Munich. I'm the contrarian who'd have Maradona in the Hall of the Very Good.

[el-pietro]

Wow! You will not find many people who agree with this take! I think there is a tendency to overrate footballers in previous eras. The pitches weren't as good, the opposition often substandard etc. When I look at old games I see a much slower game played by (relatively speaking) out of shape men. I also think due to the lack of television coverage it is hard to rate players based on their entire career and so World Cups had much more importance than they do today. It was really the only opportunity most people had to see the best players in the world so a good performance there inflates their reputation.
Maradona captained Argentina to a World Cup in 86 where he scored 5 and created another five in just 7 games, and took them to the final in 1990 despite carrying an injury, defeating the host nation Italy in Naples, which at the time was Maradonas home.
His time in Naples is probably his greatest achievement though. Before he arrived Napoli were a nothing team in a poor region of Italy. They had won a couple of Coppa Italia titles and some lower division trophies. They had never played in European Competition. In his time there they won Serie A twice, a feat they have never repeated, including doing the "double" in 1986/87, winning both Serie A and the Coppa. In 1988/89 they won the UEFA Cup, which no longer exists but was significant at the time as the third European Competition at a time when only each leagues Champions played in the European Cup, the forebearer to the Champions League.

To this day Maradona holds godlike status in Napoli. The closest comparison I can make is LeBron winning a title in Cleveland, but Maradona didn't leave and come back, and I don't think the finances and level of poverty compares between Naples and Cleveland.

[LegoDoom]

Maybe he wouldn't have been as well known, but ignoring what he did for Napoli in the late 80's against top competition seems like a bad take. He was elite for nearly a decade and a transcendent player

[Jeff05]

I don't deny that Maradona was a very good player. My point is that other players in the game at that time were also very good and enjoyed more or less the same level of success. Of course, it is difficult, if not impossible, to compare players across sports; however, it seems to me that May's was better for longer.

[zambonir]

Peak soccer careers aren't nearly as long as peak baseball careers, are they? I mean, with a lot of guys these days, you hit 32 and you start getting cut from the national team, and/or moving out of the top leagues to MLS. We now know the same goes for baseball players, even as some guys in their 30s still perform.

Obviously Mays was extraordinary (duh) but very different sports, leagues, eras. Bigger question to me would be whether Mays was actually better than his godson (PEDs aside). I think baseball is more reluctant to elevate new players over historic players, whereas it's my impression it wouldn't be that controversial to say Ronaldo or Messi are better than Maradona (even if it can be endlessly debated). I don't think you can discount the World Cup either, even if a lot of its power was symbolic.

[Jeff05]

Peak soccer careers aren't nearly as long as peak baseball careers, are they?

Agreed; hence, I wrote "it is difficult, if not impossible, to compare players across sports". I should point out that, perhaps to the detriment of my argument, Messi and Ronaldo (strikers) played a different position to Maradona (attacking midfielder). Maybe Maradona was one of the best players ever in this position? Certainly, he should be compared with players such as Zizinho, Bobby Charlton, Johan Cruyff, Zico, Michel Platini, Zinedine Zidane, Andrés Iniesta, Xavi, Luís Figo and Kevin De Bruyne.

As I wrote previously, mine is a contrarian view. Many people, who know far more about the game than I could possibly imagine, disagree with that view. They're wrong!

[el-pietro]

Ronaldo and Messi have evolved throughout their careers. Neither has been an out and out striker until the latter years. Both were wide forwards, and could have been described as attacking midfielders.
Messi could have been the greatest midfielder of all time if he had chosen to do so. In my view there's never been anyone who can do the things he can.
I still think Maradona is rightly considered to be in the top tier of players, though I cant fairly judge his career as I didn't see enough of it. I'm confident Pele is not at the level of these other players and a lot of his reputation is based on some suspicious goal tallies.

[xogfog]

You know, every time I see that this thread has been updated, I expect it to be news of someone passing, not a discussion about soccer... That said, I'm glad it hasn't been a rash of deaths, just Maradona, and it's soccer so who cares...

[tom81]

Death does keep coming xogfog.

Tony Hsieh, Longtime Chief of Zappos, Is Dead at 46

Tony Hsieh, Longtime Chief of Zappos, Is Dead at 46

[Jeff05]

Dave Prowse: Darth Vader actor dies aged 85

[Philsmania]

Whiz Kid Bob Miller.

Bob Miller, 'Whiz Kid' Phillie, Dies At 94

If I'm correct, only Curt Simmons remains. [update--that is correct, per the below Inquirer article]

Curt Simmons and Bob Miller, the last two Phillies Whiz Kids, keep the memories...